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| Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard
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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 19:36 - 27 Aug 2022  Post subject: |
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| Nobby the Bastard wrote: | Where power generation is concerned, there is no 'short term'. |
Compared to a viable renewables infrastructure there most certainly is, and I have provided you with those answers. But it's ok; I'm not seeking payment 
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| Islander |
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Islander
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| Ribenapigeon |
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Ribenapigeon
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 21:01 - 27 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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They've tried it in Cornwall a few times but geothermal has the same problems as fracking (with current technology) in that the Nimbys cite the heavy price of earthquakes and the sky falling in. The same mentality behind "Nuclear bad, m'kay" 
One would suspect such protests to be funded by "Big Oil" but given our current energy predicament a good time for revisiting.
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Islander
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Islander
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| Ribenapigeon |
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Ribenapigeon
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| Ste |
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Ste
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Easy-X
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| Robby |
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Robby
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| Posted: 17:06 - 28 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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Energy policy. It's like the olympics, every man and his dog is suddenly an expert.
I'm not an expert, but I was very familiar with it ~15 years ago.
Just to knock out some of the totally facile ideas and provide some input from experience in the field.
- Fracking more, or getting more gas out of the north sea, or any domestic or semi-domestic source, doesn't do anything noticeable for prices. The gas is still priced and sold on international markets, with the proceeds going to the (private) owners of the extraction facility.
- Renewables are continually being built. They work well. Offshore wind is by far the most cost effective in the UK, followed by solar.
- Energy storage, whether pumped hydro, batteries, or something else will be more necessary as more of grid is powered by intermittent renewables. That's a far way off. Far easier to pick up the slack with gas for the medium term.
- Having a diverse grid is a very good thing. Sometimes it isn't sunny, sometimes it isn't windy, sometimes gas is expensive, sometimes nuclear plants are down for maintenance. A diverse grid can manage any of these things without anyone noticing. Our grid is heavily reliant on gas, hence the current clusterfuck.
- Nothing will, or should, change quickly. A lot of people are going to be very fucked. The best hedge a homeowner can do right now is to install their own solar panels and batteries. You can be largely self-sufficient for electricity for about £10k in the south of England. Of course, if you have £10k lying around, you're probably not that worried anyway.
And my own personal opinion, which is not based on any evidence or particular experience, just hope. This might at least bring down the tories. I'm glad the international crisis is happening on their watch for once, and they can't blame Labour. |
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| Robby |
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Robby
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| Polarbear |
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Polarbear
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| Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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| Posted: 20:30 - 28 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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| Robby wrote: | Fracking more, or getting more gas out of the north sea, or any domestic or semi-domestic source, doesn't do anything noticeable for prices. The gas is still priced and sold on international markets, with the proceeds going to the (private) owners of the extraction facility. |
True.
| Robby wrote: | Renewables are continually being built. They work well. Offshore wind is by far the most cost effective in the UK, followed by solar. |
Unless you’re generating renewables yourself doesn’t your first point apply, ie. billed at the going rate for energy regardless, with the proceeds going to the private owners?
| Robby wrote: | Energy storage, whether pumped hydro, batteries, or something else will be more necessary as more of grid is powered by intermittent renewables. |
As with EVs, battery storage has peaked despite 100 years of research, huge interest and reports of ‘promising’ academic developments which go nowhere.
Edit: added a question mark. |
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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 21:04 - 28 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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I laugh that anyone thinks Labour would handle things any better. So now I've said that, you think I'm some kind of Tory fanboy. That makes me laugh too.
I also laugh when someone says "i'm not an expert" but then goes on to do exactly what he accuses others of doing.
"But I was very familiar with it ~15 years ago." Another laugh. 15 years ago was ever so very slightly different to the situation we are in now.
For entertainment, BCF just keeps on giving!
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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 14:06 - 29 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | | Robby wrote: | Fracking more, or getting more gas out of the north sea, or any domestic or semi-domestic source, doesn't do anything noticeable for prices. The gas is still priced and sold on international markets, with the proceeds going to the (private) owners of the extraction facility. |
True. |
It doesn't have to be this way. It depends on how the government handles things. If they can put a halt on fracking, they can also give it the go-ahead, and decide how the assets are to be handled. It needs thinking outside the box, some kind of public/private partnership.
Think of the power the government has assumed in the last couple of years. They were able to tell people when and where they can go out. They could tell them what businesses they were allowed to run and which they couldn't. They could even force people to wear face masks, and came close to telling them they had to have a medical intervention, even if they were young, fit and healthy. And look at the money they threw away to enable all of this.
Keeping national energy assets in public ownership makes far more sense than any of that.
And again, there is coal, at least as a temporary measure. This could be ramped up relatively quickly. In fact, I'm sure I read somewhere that the first tentative steps here have already been taken.
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| Easy-X |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 15:00 - 29 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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| Robby wrote: | Energy policy... |
tl;dr Prices are elastic, production not so much.
We must have relatively diverse electricity generation methods otherwise how are we, at this current moment, selling 3GW to France? Coincidently the same as our wind energy and 10% of our total output. Can we keep the lights on without Russian oil and gas? Pretty much, unlike Germany.
I like the idea of personal solar but is it really an efficient way of doing it? Isn't economies of scale still a thing?
For example: for a suburb of roof top solar versus a single field of solar you have to consider each individual house needs it's own transformer system instead of one big one in the field, hundreds of administrative endpoints versus one in the field, hundreds of doors to knock on and appointments for maintenance to organise versus one in the field... have I banged the nail in hard enough yet?
Making everyone self-sufficient in a 21st Century version of "The Good Life" sounds very much like Anarchy (in the political sense, don't go all Mad Max on me!) Such is the power of the grift I suppose as let's be honest with the subsidies and that's what roof-top solar is all about.
First electric so you get solar, next it'll be water and so you collect rain water and water the garden with bath water. Then the Ukraine war's impact on fertiliser ramps up food costs so you grow your own veggies and keep chickens... people might start get funny ideas and think they can live completely "off grid." Political suicide much?
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| Robby |
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Robby
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Posted: 16:27 - 29 Aug 2022  Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: |
Unless you’re generating renewables yourself doesn’t your first point apply, ie. billed at the going rate for energy regardless, with the proceeds going to the private owners?
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It is billed at the current rate for electricity, but that current rate is a lot lower if the cost of generation is lower. If we were getting 60% of our power from renewables, 20% from nuclear and 20% from gas, it's costing less to generate than the current mix with 50% gas.
| Easy-X wrote: |
I like the idea of personal solar but is it really an efficient way of doing it? Isn't economies of scale still a thing?
For example: for a suburb of roof top solar versus a single field of solar you have to consider each individual house needs it's own transformer system instead of one big one in the field, hundreds of administrative endpoints versus one in the field, hundreds of doors to knock on and appointments for maintenance to organise versus one in the field... have I banged the nail in hard enough yet?
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That's why I said it's a personal hedge for householders. Small scale generation is going to be less efficient overall than large scale generation. That said, it's not that much of a difference. More admin and cost up front for a load of different installations and different parts, but most of those parts still need supplying regardless of use case. Home rooftop solar is a day or two of work for 20 years of generation. My preferred solution is to do both, a lot.
You also mentioned subsidies for rooftop solar. The last major one was feed-in tarriffs, and they closed to new entrants years ago. The only incentive I'm aware of right now is zero VAT, which is hardly a major factor when they were previously rated at 5% VAT. Incentives aren't really needed now, your average 3 bed semi can have solar for about £5k, and battery storage for another £3k. From October, that would pay for itself in about 3 years. |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 17:15 - 29 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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That's a good point: hedge with both micro and macro power generation. Grid goes out due to terrorist attack or Russian hackers? Switch to local household power...
That would imply you'd also have local storage. (Something like the oft-touted second-hand Tesla battery boxed up bolted to the side of your house.) With that ideal set up most people would maybe have to skip running the washer/dryer/dishwasher while the grid was being fixed but you'd totally manage to keep lights, TV & broadband going. "Catastrophe" converted to "somewhat annoying"
There is a simpler solution that people have done out of greed (think pot farms) but now might attempt from necessity which is to bypass the 'lecy meter and steal the electricity. Totally illegal and potentially lethal I must point out! Might be something we see more of promoted in the media, going into winter: "father of three dies trying to bypass meter" 
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| A100man |
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A100man
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Ribenapigeon
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 22:53 - 30 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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Round my way you'd focus more on the reasons, mostly pot farms in my experience. Although the Venn Diagram of "Cannabis Cultivators" and "East Europeans" probably has a fair overlap
One bypass (I heard of from someone who will remain nameless) just fed a side garage... for the pot farm So the stolen electricity fed the totally illegal crop but not the rest of the house. And they say there's no honour among thieves 
Thing is the twerp later sold the property and never undid the bypass so a) the new owners are totally unaware they could run a welder or a drill press in the garage for free and b) when they do something innocent like get a new smart meter it's gonna get a little... interesting
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| Ribenapigeon |
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Ribenapigeon
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| Posted: 07:03 - 31 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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| Polarbear |
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 09:27 - 31 Aug 2022 Post subject: |
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Stilton and port, yummeee! 
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 1 year, 238 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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