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Polarbear
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 Posted: 19:57 - 03 Oct 2022  Post subject: Green energy. Is that actually possible? |
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We have all touched on this topic when talking about EV's and the Extinction rebellion and I suppose that we all want the earth to survive (mabe not chickenstrip  ) but whenever something is classed as green if you dig a little deeper there is always a caveat or some form of twisting the facts to suit whoever is putting the agenda.
This has come to light according to the BBC...
Drax: UK power station owner cuts down primary forests in Canada.
A company that has received billions of pounds in green energy subsidies from UK taxpayers is cutting down environmentally-important forests, a BBC Panorama investigation has found.
Even if you ignore the naughty forest cutting, burning wood, even off cuts seems to be fraught with pizz taking. Carbon swapping and planting enough trees to replace the ones cut down. We will be carbon neutral in 20 years when it becomes a big tree!
In fact, everything obviously has it's downsides but it seems to me just about everyone from governments down just pays lip service to green unless they can make money out of it.
Wind turbines? Yes, green when the wind blows but even they have a downside other than 'the blot on the landscape' and the fact they don't bloody work when the wind stops.
Wind Turbine Blades Can’t Be Recycled, So They’re Piling Up in Landfills
We are obviously still hugely reliant on fossil fuels as this Russian war has shown so the utter bollox that people can buy electricity that is totally from green sources is just that, utter bollox. EON - Enjoy 100% renewable electricity at no extra cost. Yeah right. If that's the case why have the electricity bills of the people on those tariffs gone up with the price of gas?
I'm all for nuclear. Yes it has it's disadvantages but nothing like coal and oil. Wave and tidal power we have touched upon before but no one seems to be willing to spend the money on it and it would be a lot of money. (yet they spend a fortune on HS2  ). However I notice that Labour, with their 'green power' agenda are now including nuclear as a necessity. That's going to go down well with the great unwashed in the student quarter.!!
The arguement for electric cars (and I'm talking green credentials only, not if they are good or not) is somewhat moot when we are still fueling powerstaions with fossil fuel. It's another tick box job. Look how green we are moving the polution out of citys.
To sum up. unless we get fusion power sometime soon the earth is going to be fucked. No government will stop their populations getting all the toys so they will supply power however they can. Yes, green if possible but if no green, whatever else is available. Case in point, Germany and coal fired stations as a stop gap. (I'm not even going to mention China and India). And when it's green it quite often isn't really. It's all smoke and mirrors.
With the best will in the world I can't see a very green future.
Comments?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63089348
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills?leadSource=uverify%20wall
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 20:06 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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The greenies can fuck off until they start being honest and sensible.
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Islander
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 21:10 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Islander wrote: | Invest in tidal, wave, wind and solar and promote microgeneration using renewables - solar is especially useful for this. |
What are the costs and sustainability in terms of mineral mining (lithium, copper etc) and resource abundance, waste products etc? What countries would we have to rely upon for supplying those resources? How much of all this would we need to be entirely renewables supported, and what are the problems that still need solving? For e.g. what kind of acreage for solar power, and where will that land be found? Are we talking solar panels for all housing, and if so, how do you make that affordable for everyone? How long do all these panels, wind turbines etc last before needing replacement? What happens to expired or failed items?
It seems to me that if you aspire to powering the world by renewables, there will always be a strain on resources and harm done in various ways.
And I don't buy into any policy that means shutting down current energy systems before viable replacements are in place and running up to the same capacity as those we shut down, as well as being at least as reliable.
And nuclear for us is mid term at best - up to 10years to get new reactors built and running according to many estimates. Not that we shouldn't get on with it!
For short term, I'd go fracking and perhaps even further usage of coal - Germany is doing this, and China has built over 100 coal-fired power stations in the last couple of years. With the best will in the world, little ol' UK cannot hope to have a major impact when compared to such scales. I'm not saying that means we shouldn't bother doing our bit, only that we ought to be realistic about how much we can do. I think the best investments we can make is at the research end for the time.
This whole energy conundrum is a huge undertaking. Let's admit that, and be reasonable about how we make the switch, and how long it would actually take, not to mention what problems we will face in doing so.
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Nobby the Bastard
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 21:21 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Nobby the Bastard wrote: | You don't need to use chemical batteries.
How about a big weight inside each wind turbine? Wind it up at times of low demand, let it down at times of high demand.
Before you say thats bollocks there's a huge hydroelectric plant in Walses that works exactly like that. |
Are you winding me up? 
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stinkwheel
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Posted: 21:52 - 03 Oct 2022  Post subject: |
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| Nobby the Bastard wrote: | You don't need to use chemical batteries.
How about a big weight inside each wind turbine? Wind it up at times of low demand, let it down at times of high demand. |
I thought that's how a lot of them work anyway, which is why about 1 in 4 doesn't have the blades turning even when it's windy. Maybe I'm wrong? Means turbine speed is constant regardless of wind speed, it just outputs more or less frequently.
You have to wonder how many megaWatts of solar panels the government could have installed on their housing stock for the amount they've spent subsidising energy bills. All council houses get solar, no options, no questions. Squad of white vans full of arseholes turns up in your area and does the lot, like when they used to whitewash tennements full of TB. Tough shit Karen, it's called eminent domain, you'll get over it. Least well off get a massive reduction in electricity bills, green energy production takes a massive leap forwards, reliance on gas takes a nosedive.
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Islander
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| Posted: 22:01 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | | Islander wrote: | Invest in tidal, wave, wind and solar and promote microgeneration using renewables - solar is especially useful for this. |
What are the costs and sustainability in terms of mineral mining (lithium, copper etc) and resource abundance, waste products etc? What countries would we have to rely upon for supplying those resources? How much of all this would we need to be entirely renewables supported, and what are the problems that still need solving? For e.g. what kind of acreage for solar power, and where will that land be found? Are we talking solar panels for all housing, and if so, how do you make that affordable for everyone? How long do all these panels, wind turbines etc last before needing replacement? What happens to expired or failed items?
It seems to me that if you aspire to powering the world by renewables, there will always be a strain on resources and harm done in various ways.
And I don't buy into any policy that means shutting down current energy systems before viable replacements are in place and running up to the same capacity as those we shut down, as well as being at least as reliable.
And nuclear for us is mid term at best - up to 10years to get new reactors built and running according to many estimates. Not that we shouldn't get on with it! |
We can conserve lithium resources by not wasting them in things like disposable vapes. Rare earths are slightly more problematic but it's not all down to China and Russia. The US, Australia, Brazil and a few other countries have significant reserves.
You don't need huge acreage for microgeneration. Roof mounted panels, solar tiles or a small area of unshaded garden will do. I installed four in my field - they take up an area about 8 x 2 m but that's because of the mount I chose to use. Four will give you about 1.2kW. That covers a surprising amount of normal domestic use. If every house had some then you'd be generating a surprising amount of power. Same goes for wind turbines - they don't have to be massive, they don't have to look like propellors either - there are cylindrical turbines that mount horizontally or vertically. Seriously, microgeneration is the future. There are grants available although the feed in tariffs have gone. |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 22:04 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Nobby the Bastard wrote: | You don't need to use chemical batteries.
How about a big weight inside each wind turbine? Wind it up at times of low demand, let it down at times of high demand.
Before you say thats bollocks there's a huge hydroelectric plant in Walses that works exactly like that. |
A few companies have floated variations on the same idea and they've (so far) all turned out to be scams. They don't turn out as economical to construct as made out in the initial pitch and you still have the same problem of all stored power: what happens with catastrophic failure? A dam bursting is pretty easy to picture but any system of storing energy is fraught with danger, winching weights much the same as industrial sized flywheels.
But with regards to renewables, define "Green" 
The propaganda is a utopia where all our energy needs are syphoned directly from the Sun at no environmental cost. What we have now is indirect energy stored in the form of coal, gas, oil etc. that was converted from solar energy a very long time ago.
"But! But! Wind and solar is free!" No, wind turbines are expensive to make, apparently not worth the bother to recycle and much more dangerous than nuclear. Solar is safer but again no one is bothering with the recycling side.
"At least electric cars are zero-emissions!" No again. They may have zero exhaust emissions but they're not emissions-free and that's without getting into the manufacturing process.
TBF all the eco-shite is a step in the right direction, an acknowledgement that a course correction is in order but it's framed in the usual "hair shirts for thee but not for me." If world leaders really cared then money would go into research improving the technology to the point were the plebs wanted it because it's better not because it's being legally imposed.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 22:13 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Islander wrote: |
You don't need huge acreage for microgeneration. Roof mounted panels, solar tiles or a small area of unshaded garden will do. I installed four in my field - they take up an area about 8 x 2 m but that's because of the mount I chose to use. Four will give you about 1.2kW. That covers a surprising amount of normal domestic use. If every house had some then you'd be generating a surprising amount of power. Same goes for wind turbines - they don't have to be massive, they don't have to look like propellors either - there are cylindrical turbines that mount horizontally or vertically. Seriously, microgeneration is the future. There are grants available although the feed in tariffs have gone. |
How do you pay for the less well off to adopt this? Given the massive debt the country is currently in? I can't afford to install any of it myself, and if it would save me money on my bills, you damn bet I'd be interested - bottom line!
But I'm more interested in the wider conversations I suggested, didn't really expect anyone here to answer the questions I raised. But I think these are the kind of things a lot of people do wonder about, and we need these conversations to be had more in the public domain, without the screams of "climate change denier/nazi!" from the more looney end of the spectrum.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 22:56 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Islander wrote: |
Yes the conversations need to be had in public - I'll only call you a climate change denier if you do a Donk, throw discredited arguments and dogma at me while failing to actually debate.
Bottom line is that we need to remove our dependence on fossil fuels and urgently so. |
Tbh, I'm not convinced of the urgency and doom and gloom that some are screeching about, in the short timescales they claim. My simpler take on it is why wouldn't you try to reduce pollution where you can?
But if things are as bad as the alarmists say, then I don't think we can move quickly enough to mitigate things much anyway. Britain doing its bit is going to have very little influence when other countries that create far more pollution are doing little, even going in the opposite direction. Those are the problems that need real attention. I think if things really are that bad, we're going to have to do some adaptation to changing environments as well as trying to reduce the change itself.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 23:19 - 03 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Islander wrote: |
We still have to make the attempt to reduce CO2 emissions. It's serious alright and we're close to some significant tipping points. |
Such as?
And there is still a lot of argument about it all among scientists from what I see (when outright suppression and vindictiveness is ignored - scientists can be so childish! And politicians jumping on the bandwagon - God preserve us!), with some very credible characters on either side (and no, I'm not interested in hearing individuals dissed - I'll look at the arguments they make and make my own judgements about what I believe).
But let's see a real effort to get the higher polluting countries to turn themselves around if we're being serious - where is that effort?!
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stinkwheel
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Islander
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 00:48 - 04 Oct 2022 Post subject: |
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| Islander wrote: |
The main tipping points that are fast approaching are the collapse of the Greenland ice sheet, the collapse of the West Antarctic ice sheet, tropical coral reef die off, and the sudden thaw of northern hemisphere permafrost. The last one would mean the release of up to 60 billion tonnes of methane and 1.7 gigatonnes of carbon. Then there's the methane stored as clathrates...
For information, the loss of the Greenland ice sheet would cause a sea level rise of around 7.2m. The loss of the West Antarctic ice sheet would cause an additional sea level rise of 4.8m.
If the Eastern Antarctic ice sheet were to ever fully melt then you'd be looking at an additional 52m of sea level rise. |
The problem is, everyone talks all the time about worst case scenarios as if there are no other degrees, and using words like "collapse" as if these are things that will happen overnight. Why would the northern permafrost suddenly thaw?
I contend that no one knows what would actually happen if we just carried on as we are now, just as nobody knows how much effect we'll have if we try to alter things deliberately.
It's like the Covid modelling - all these catastrophic predictions that never came to pass, and we'd have had little chance of doing anything about it if they had without causing fairly catastrophic problems ourselves (as some would say we did).
Alarmism - I can't get on board with it, especially when I see such hypocrisy from some of the loudest voices, and when it crops up with everything from racism to the price of eggs, literally!
And what are we prepared to sacrifice if we believe how bad things "will" be? What are you sacrificing now? What's the point of saving a life if we destroy another? The planet isn't in any danger. We're not about to spark off a Venus-style runaway greenhouse effect (assuming that's what actually happened on Venus).
Oh, and I read recently about some promising coral reef recovery signs - think it might even have been the Great Barrier Reef.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 1 year, 207 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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