Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution

[stinkwheel]

It's not actually a "new" thing, just something I only became aware of recently... This goes on a bit!

A vet was prosecuted and jailed as a co-conspirator in a puppy farming case. The puppy farmers were bringing him puppies to be vaccinated. He filled in a vaccination record card with the details (Name, address, chip details) they gave him. The owners details were not correct, the chip details were confirmed correct at the time by the vet. There is no argument about if that puppy was actually checked over and vaccinated, just the owners name and address was highly questionable in its accuracy. It is a fair assumption that he knew they were puppy farming.

He was found guilty of conspiracy fraud in a prosecution by the RSPCA because the jury found his vaccination cards gave the puppies a false impression of legitimately having been home bred. He was given a custodial sentence and 150 hours community service. He was also reprimanded by the Royal College and removed from the register for an additional month. He spent a total of 8 months in jail.

Now I fill in vaccination records all the time. Someone tells me their name and address, I examine the pup, scan their chip, vaccinate them then fill those details in on the record card. I have always thought of a vaccine record as just that, nothing more than a record of when the pup was vaccinated and with what vaccine. I have 15 minutes to do all of that in as well as discuss neutering, feeding, exercise, parasite control and training while maintaining a pleasant and engaged demeanour.

It appears I am now legally personally responsible for verifying that persons identity, address and the legitimacy of the origin of the dog when someone presents a pup to me for first vaccination.

I personally feel (as did the vet in question) that policing breeding regulations is not my job. My job is to ensure the welfare of the animal in front of me and in this case, ensuring it is fully vaccinated is a hell of a good start, ESPECIALLY if it's a dodgy breeder. I get dogs in all the time that have almost certainly been involved in illegal activity (hare coursing is one of the most common). I don't get all up on my high horse, I treat their injuries. If word got around someone went to the vets and was dobbed in to the police, the net result would be those people would not bring me the dog.

Same would have gone for a puppy farmer, I regularly get shitty people bringing me litters of shitty pups who are clearly just out to make a fast buck. I try to advise them on their care and think at least they are having the things vaccinated.

I was wondering how the public feel about this? Because the Jury in this case clearly didn't agree with this standpoint.

Would you take the name and address on a pups vaccination record card as proof of its origin?

How would you feel about being required to provide proof of your address before someone would vaccinate your new puppy?

How would you feel about suspected puppy farmers being refused vaccinations and reported to the police by vets? (With the net result that they would presumably stop taking them to the vets).

I'm rather hoping we can deal with this issue by printing a disclaimer on the record cards a bit like the DVLA do on V5s. Along the lines of "This document is proof of vaccination, not proof of ownership or origin. All owners details were provided by the person presenting the animal for vaccination.".

Hell, I've even issued vaccination record cards when giving whole litters their first vaccine with the owners name and address blank so the new owner can fill their own details in. I fill in the dogs details and chip number and which vaccine I gave. Now it turns out I could go to fucking jail as a co-conspirator if that person turns out to be a puppy farmer!

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/posts/uxbridge-based-vet-suspended-for-passing-off-puppy-farm-puppies-as-home-bred
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Interesting. I’d have said the vet’s responsibility extended only so far as to vaccinate the animal and record it based upon the information given. No harm was given. I wonder what advice the jury was given.

[stinkwheel]

This worries me. By the metric of that case, I'm almost certainly a criminal conspiritor because I have knowingly vaccinated litters of pups where I'm certain the breeder has bred more than three litters a year and has no licence from the local council (which makes them a de-facto illegal puppy farmer).

I thought of another (to my mind) elegant solution which is to have new record cards printed which do not have a space for the owners name and address.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Is it that you’re supposed to report your unproven suspicions of illegality, or decline to improve the health of animals whose ‘owners’ may not be honest about their identities? I can’t see how the vet can possibly be at fault.

[hellkat]

[tatters]

With the possible repercussions being quite serious as with what happened to the other Vet in question. l would suggest getting legal advice from a Lawyer/Solicitor as to how you can protect yourself which would most likely be the disclaimer on the vaccination card you mentioned.

They should be able to draft the wording that you need to use.
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650 Present:G650XC,C12,KZ750,1190ADV

[WD Forte]

I can understand you not wanting to be regarded as a 'dobber'
but you have every right to protect yourelf from career suicide and getting banged up.
I'd do as tatters suggests and get legal advice ASAP and if this means putting
a 'No dodgy shit here please' notice on the wall and whatever else to protect yourself.

If the puppy farmers stop calling so what?
Those fuckers will not be the types who'd start a gofundme page for your
legal fees when you're up shit creek.
Legit ones will understand and be ok with filling in few forms and offering ID
if its all on the level

Cover your ass
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bikers smell of wee

[Ribenapigeon]

Maybe there was other evidence regarding the jailed vet which further incriminated him beyond just signing off on a vaccine record.

[stinkwheel]

It was a clever scam in some ways. The puppy farmers were importing litters of puppies from Ireland then stashing them at an address and pretending that's where they'd been bred. They gave that address to the vet as their home address which is what appeared on the record card.

The court held he was complicit in the fraud because he used the supplied address on the record card in the knowledge it was dodgy.

But hell, I have some clients who come in who don't appear to be able to remember their own name. It sometimes takes them up to three attempts to remember which name and address they registered with. Most usually because they can't remember which one already has an unpaid bill.

The Royal College disciplinary committee are on their high-horse about it all and are saying he should have refused to issue the vaccine records and reported the people. They also seem to disagree with his standpoint that it's better overall for these pups to have been vaccinated. I think they're wrong. Even the judge in his summing up stated that the vets primary intention had been to protect animal welfare but it seems his hands were tied by the vagueries of jury trial. He wasn't even making a lot of money out of this.

I see it as similar to A&E treating a junkie for infected needle tracks or an OD. You don't report them to the police because you want them to come in for treatment.

The vet in question is also of the oppinion that the RSPCA have prosecuted a vendetta against him because he refused to release the patient records to them without the owners permission or a legal warrant (which is entirely in accordance with GDPR). I'm inclined to believe him.

It's a bit of a shake-up in the profession and there has been no clear guidance about exactly what we SHOULD do. Our indemnity insurers have been pretty vague with rough advice that we should establish a persons identity before issuing record cards.

It's not for me to decide overall. I have requested the management at work have a meeting to set out a clear policy/procedure for how these things are to be dealt with. In the interest of bringing solutions rather than just problems, the strategy of a disclaimer or simply ommitting owners details was my idea.

Ultimately, my understanding is that puppy farming is Trading Standards job to enforce. If someone comes in with a dodgy seeming pup, I recommend they contact trading standards who can act on complaints. I'm also happy to release records to them on receipt of a proper legal request.

The RSPCA needn't expect me to do them any favours.

Whay am I posting about this on a motorbike forum? Most of the people I know are involved in the profession in some way. Most of the people on here are not and there are a good few dog owners...

What also blows my mind was an 8 month custodial sentence. You could break into someones house, steal their car keys then lead the police on a 100 mile chase the wrong way up the M1 and not get 8 months.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Easy-X]

Personally I find the whole concept of puppy farming distasteful.

Question: would you buy a bike of unknown provenance without at least a V5? Probably not unless it was someone you know well and you were doing them a favour.

In the short term not offering medical treatment would hurt the pups but in the long term the value of dodgy dogs, crooked canines, risky rovers... err... hoax hounds* would go down and thus the whole sordid business might fizzle out.

*I'll get me coat.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[MCN]

Extreme punishment.

If a murderer is ventilated after injury in a car chase, would a doctor be asked to verify the identification before helping?

Was the vet in question represented by any professional organisation?

I does seem very harsh for a questionable 'crime'.

Slava Vets.

Fuk the RSPCA.
And the law.
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN.

[Ribenapigeon]

You could make plain to customers that due to the recent case from now on you will require proof of identity and address. So something like a photo id combined with a council tax or utility bill. Maybe also design your own procedure for creating a threshold for suspicious activity and be clear that if that threshold is reached then you will take your concern to the relevant authorities. So, cover yourself and pass the buck. Shouldn't be too difficult. In my line of work we have a similar process when dealing with clients who may be involved in illegal activities. I would imagine in the veterinary world there must be all sorts of legal reporting requirements and responsibilities where you could find relevant procedures to crib from.

The sentencing of this guy sounds very heavy but im suspecting he was obstructive or otherwise being badly represented.

[Nobby the Bastard]

Yep, I have to be very careful about certain matters because of the nature of my qualifications I'm held to a much higher standard where certain matters are concerned than the average man on the street, to the extent that any failure of judgement on my part could be career ending.

I would treat your job in exactly the same way in light of this judgement.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050

[Freddyfruitba...]

[ThunderGuts]

I would say it's all about what is beyond all reasonable doubt, with reasonable being the operative word here. If the details clearly mismatch, then that would potentially be a red flag (no idea what you'd say/do at this point though?), but ultimately as a vet it isn't your job to interrogate customers and patient records to determine illegal activity (I assume at least?!) so unless something is obviously amiss (akin to a GP treating a child and suspecting injuries were abuse-inflicted), I'd say you can't be expected to spot everything.

From what it sounds like, there was a ridiculous level of "blind eye" turning going on with that case.

With anything, keep records and possibly have a procedure on vaccinations and what justifiably needs to be recorded and what to do if there's a mismatch. You could even go an extra step, contact the RSPCA or your professional body (or both) and say you want to ensure your organisation doesn't inadvertently fall foul of something like this, therefore you'd like to seek their advice on what is the appropriate way to respond to such scenarios and modify/create company procedures accordingly.
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TG.

[stinkwheel]

[Easy-X]

A culture of informing on one's neighbours never pans out well.

What is the central problem of puppy farming? I would suggest vendors playing fast and loose with the health of the animal. Maybe we need the pet-health equivalent of an MoT?
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[virus]

I think giving a custodial to someone who was carrying out his duty to his oath and also respecting GDPR rules rather than the RSPCSAs bullying sets one hell of a bad precedent that would make may people in the industry raise the same questions you have currently.

I personally feel that the RSPCA have handled this entire situation very badly, effectively bullying someone on the same team until they got the result they wanted that may or may not have shut down that one particular puppy farm. Also bad call on the court for pandering to the 'rspca must be right' and not thinking about the bigger picture.

to answer your question though, personally I wouldn't give a flying fuck who presented the pup for vax and where they lived, Id have sussed them out by other means and would see the vax record card as just that, recorded proof of a welfare check carried out by a qualified professional.


Cheers
John
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own: 81 xs1100g...
owned: 85 rat CG (sold), 91 GS500e (stolen), 84 gsx400f (scrapped), 81 z250 (siezed, siezed, scrapped), 83 cb250rs (sold), 84 gpz750r ratfighter (killed) 84gpz400 (sold), '80 cb650 ratfighter (wrote off) 95gsx6/12f ratfighter (killed) 91 xj900 (sold)
stinkwheel Well I just had my hands up a pigs fanny. Which makes your concerns pale into insignificance.

[Nobby the Bastard]

RSPCA do have a long history of being cunts though.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050

[Bhud]

[Ribenapigeon]

[TbirdX]

Don't know the case but I suspect that the vet in question filled out many vac cards for the 'breeder' in question and hence was complicit.

Filling out a single card with questionable accuracy would not constitute fraud. A verfiable history of it most probably would though.

There are many jobs where that would apply no doubt.
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VFR800X - TTR250

[Polarbear]

^^^ I agree with above ^^^

I don't know any more than what you have written but I would bet a pound to a pinch of sh1t said vet has been knowingly chucking out vaccination certificates to dodgy people on an industrial scale.

Was he paid backhanders or way over and above the going rate for having vaccinations done?

Edited to add.....

While the RSPCA are well known to be utter cvnts at times, they only brought the prosecution. The jury and the judge had to be convinced of wrong doing to find a guilty verdict and such a 'harsh' sentence.
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[stinkwheel]

He was actually doing the vaccines at a substantial discount, possibly even making a loss on them because he felt strongly that the best thing he could do for them was make sure they were covered.

I believe he was doing a 1st vaccine with flea and worm treatment for £16 per pup. You'd be looking at more in the ballpark of £50-60 for that in most places.

I genuinely believe if vets start dobbing them in, all it will achieve is that they just wont take them to a vet at all. Idiots will still pay thousands for them, unvaccinated from a car boot in a supermarket carpark, because a French bulldog is the must have social media accessory. I also get people in regularly who bought a pup from what was obviously a very dodgy source (for example from a basket of assorted puppies from an Irish sounding bloke wandering round at Appleby horse fair) because they felt sorry for it and wanted to rescue it.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Ste]