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Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution

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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Re: Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:
It is a fair assumption that he knew they were puppy farming.

He wasn't just a vet who was trying to ensure their welfare, he was part of the puppy farming setup.

No vet who's more interested in the welfare of a dog rather than where the owner got it from is going to jail as a co-conspirator if the customer turns out to be a puppy farmer unless that vets involvement turns out to be on a scale that's clearly part of a conspiracy.

"A west London vet has been found guilty of helping a gang sell thousands of illegally bred puppies by issuing false paperwork for dogs.

Daniel Doherty, who operated out of Uxbridge, provided health checks and vaccination cards to help convince buyers the puppies were legal.

Isleworth Crown Court heard the 49-year-old was paid nearly £80,000 by the gang who took thousands of dogs to him.

Doherty, of Iver Heath, was found guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud.

He and six members of the puppy trading gang - who all previously admitted fraud and animal welfare offences - will be sentenced on a date to be set in May.

The court heard the gang took more than 4,500 puppies to Doherty between 23 March 2011 and 10 May 2017.

He provided false documents to disguise the dogs imported from abroad or farmed, and they were sold by the gang across London and the South East."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43701421

Rain


Like if he's that bloke he's bang to rights


But put it this way, say you know a Gypsy is up to this and then dob them in, your house gets set on fire, what do you do then?
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Re: Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Isleworth Crown Court heard the 49-year-old was paid nearly £80,000 by the gang who took thousands of dogs to him.

Wow - I mean, Stinkwheel I really don't think you need to be worried personally about the implications of this case
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MCN
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
He was actually doing the vaccines at a substantial discount, possibly even making a loss on them because he felt strongly that the best thing he could do for them was make sure they were covered.

I believe he was doing a 1st vaccine with flea and worm treatment for £16 per pup. You'd be looking at more in the ballpark of £50-60 for that in most places.

I genuinely believe if vets start dobbing them in, all it will achieve is that they just wont take them to a vet at all. Idiots will still pay thousands for them, unvaccinated from a car boot in a supermarket carpark, because a French bulldog is the must have social media accessory. I also get people in regularly who bought a pup from what was obviously a very dodgy source (for example from a basket of assorted puppies from an Irish sounding bloke wandering round at Appleby horse fair) because they felt sorry for it and wanted to rescue it.


Therefore it's your duty to report Appleby Horse Fair. For selling dags.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Re: Worrying (to me) veterinary prosecution Reply with quote
Ste wrote:


No vet who's more interested in the welfare of a dog rather than where the owner got it from is going to jail as a co-conspirator if the customer turns out to be a puppy farmer unless that vets involvement turns out to be on a scale that's clearly part of a conspiracy.


Although this guy is one of the best. Graduated with distinction which is vanishingly rare.

Judges comments:
Quote:
Obviously you are a very good vet in terms of your work...

...I am not sure if what I say has an impact on your professional body, but I hope very much they may take as lenient a view as they can, rather than destroying your purpose in life altogether. For what it’s worth, I hope they will be as lenient as they can.”


And the RCVS disciplinary committee findings:

Quote:
In reaching its decision, the committee also took into account the circumstances of this case and, in particular, the view of the court that Mr Doherty had been motivated solely by animal welfare concerns and not financial gain, and that it was this overriding concern that had allowed others to exploit his willingness to continue to vaccinate puppies despite their source.

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two different stories here, the one you're saying and the one Ste put up about him with 80 grand and thousands of puppies.

If he was doing it for the dogs benefit fine, but if he knew he was complicit with puppy farmers and not reporting/protecting himself he's risking his reputaion isn't he?

If what Ste put up is the facts, however good a vet he is, he was knowledgably supplying false documents then what do you expect? It's a bit like me falsifying safety drills or maintenance records. If caught, I'd get sacked, minimum and for saftey stuff probably prosecuted.

Whichever it is, unless you start vaccinating hundreds of puppies from the same person, I would think you are pretty safe.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
We worked out it added up to his practice vaccinating 6 pups a week over 2 different sites.

The worry for me is that if it counts as an offence here, it also counts as an offence if it's Mrs Slob giving her neighbours address as 15 Shit Street instead of 17 Shit Street so she doesn't get done off the council for having three litters of Frenchijackapoos in a year. Public interest tests don't come into it with RSPCA prosecutions. You shag one sheep...

I've come up with a policy/solution anyway. No vaccination certificates will be issued unless an animal is chipped (but the vaccination can still be given) and for litters of puppies being vaccinated, the address section on the certificate is to be struck-through so its being completed can't be misconstrued as verifying the origin of the pups.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
My local vet needs prosecuting just for it's outrageous mark-up! Bisolvon was £9 now £13. They marked it up £4 more since last time I bought it. Guess how much the online price is? £2.75!
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
My local vet needs prosecuting just for it's outrageous mark-up! Bisolvon was £9 now £13. They marked it up £4 more since last time I bought it. Guess how much the online price is? £2.75!


We've stopped stocking the stuff because we have to stock a box of 40 sachets and don't sell more than half of them before they go out of date and we have to bin them.

Also worth noting that an annoying part of the opaque shitshow that is the pharmaceuticals industry selling cabal is that a veterinary practice can only legally purchase drugs from a veterinary wholesalers.

Many (most?) drugs, including really common ones like metacam are available for sale from online pharmacies at significantly less than the cost price from the wholesalers. I can't check now but I'd put my customary 25p bet that the vets are paying a good bit more than £2.75 to buy Bisolvon in. Consumers aren't the only ones having their trousers pulled down.

After one of the large human wholesalers started supplying human generic medicines to vets, our veterinary wholesalers dropped the price of some of the human eye drops we use by 600%.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:25 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm in a densely-populated area though they aren't going to struggle to sell a box of 40 here.

So today, flea drops. Two dogs one cat so 2x prinovox 4-10kg (£46.58) and one <4kg (£40.90). £134 all-in.

VetUK price £21.40 (x2) and (£14.99) = £56.79

I like to support my local vet (ben my local vet now for 34 years) but I struggle to believe I'm not having my arse tanned here.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
We worked out it added up to his practice vaccinating 6 pups a week over 2 different sites.



That's still a hell of a lot if he was aware it's the same gang.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
I'm in a densely-populated area though they aren't going to struggle to sell a box of 40 here.

So today, flea drops. Two dogs one cat so 2x prinovox 4-10kg (£46.58) and one <4kg (£40.90). £134 all-in.

VetUK price £21.40 (x2) and (£14.99) = £56.79

I like to support my local vet (ben my local vet now for 34 years) but I struggle to believe I'm not having my arse tanned here.


Could well be. It's a broken system. Too many years of subsidising the work done fees with the drugs sales. Then corporates got their foot in the door (you used to have to be a qualified vet to run a practice) and share prices took over from service provision.

I'd be all for moving to a model like the NHS where you get all your drugs elsewhere on prescription. I don't think customers would like it though and the fees for consults and surgery would go up.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 04 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


Also worth noting that an annoying part of the opaque shitshow that is the pharmaceuticals industry selling cabal is that a veterinary practice can only legally purchase drugs from a veterinary wholesalers.


One of my dogs is on Lorazepam and my local vet practice buys it from one of the local pharmacists (Boots, I think).
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:08 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:

One of my dogs is on Lorazepam and my local vet practice buys it from one of the local pharmacists (Boots, I think).


It'll be a kind of workaround. They'll write a prescription for your animal and get it filled by the pharmacist. You can do that on an individual animal basis
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
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Islander
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Islander wrote:

One of my dogs is on Lorazepam and my local vet practice buys it from one of the local pharmacists (Boots, I think).


It'll be a kind of workaround. They'll write a prescription for your animal and get it filled by the pharmacist. You can do that on an individual animal basis


That sounds about right. They did it that way around because it worked out a lot cheaper than animal licenced Lorazepam from their main supplier. They're a good bunch Smile
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MCN
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PostPosted: 03:43 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Pete. wrote:
I'm in a densely-populated area though they aren't going to struggle to sell a box of 40 here.

So today, flea drops. Two dogs one cat so 2x prinovox 4-10kg (£46.58) and one <4kg (£40.90). £134 all-in.

VetUK price £21.40 (x2) and (£14.99) = £56.79

I like to support my local vet (ben my local vet now for 34 years) but I struggle to believe I'm not having my arse tanned here.


Could well be. It's a broken system. Too many years of subsidising the work done fees with the drugs sales. Then corporates got their foot in the door (you used to have to be a qualified vet to run a practice) and share prices took over from service provision.

I'd be all for moving to a model like the NHS where you get all your drugs elsewhere on prescription. I don't think customers would like it though and the fees for consults and surgery would go up.


I saw a doco about NHS GP practices that have been sold out to Murikan ConGloms and the practice run by not-yet-doctors.

I'm not a doctor but it was shown as being very unsafe.
The main issue is that NHS is funded by the taxpayer and now some Murikan ConGlom can simply skim a hefty profit for a less tjan minimal service funded by Joe and Josephine British Public.

Out politicians create this shite.

And to think that there are so many walls, guns and ammo and a hungry proletariat.
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Freddyfruitba...
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Joined: 20 May 2016
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Pete. wrote:
I like to support my local vet (ben my local vet now for 34 years) but I struggle to believe I'm not having my arse tanned here.

Could well be. It's a broken system. Too many years of subsidising the work done fees with the drugs sales.

Out of interest, what's your view on customers who come in wanting prescriptions, rather than buying the actual drugs, in order to be able to buy them cheaper elsewhere?

Both my (uninsured) dogs are now on long-term medication, so I spend a fair bit on drugs... like Pete I do want to support my local (independent) vet, and also I'd prefer not to spoil my relationship with them by royally pissing them off if I decide to buy my gear elsewhere...
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddyfruitbat wrote:

Out of interest, what's your view on customers who come in wanting prescriptions, rather than buying the actual drugs, in order to be able to buy them cheaper elsewhere?

Both my (uninsured) dogs are now on long-term medication, so I spend a fair bit on drugs... like Pete I do want to support my local (independent) vet, and also I'd prefer not to spoil my relationship with them by royally pissing them off if I decide to buy my gear elsewhere...


I'm fine with it. It's sometimes a bit of a scutter to do the actual prescription depending on what system you have but as long as you've called ahead for it, no worries. It's when people walk in the door and want one NOW it gets a bit annoying because you're usually supposed to be doing something else at the time. If people want the drugs themselves for long term meds, a nurse can put them up based on the instructions in the records whereas the vet always has to do the prescription.

There are some long term medicines I even suggest people buy online because the prices we pay and then have to charge are so ludicrous.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 05 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I like the idea of only having the vaccination card tied to the identity of the animal, and not the person.

You could even leave the address bit in there, but not fill it out. You write in the details of the vaccination, animal name, microchip number. Even print it off on a label with your practice name on it as a letterhead, or sign next to that bit. Something to make it clear that you only filled out that bit and it looks official.

Verifying the identity of a person is hard, verifying an address is harder, so it's easier to not get involved in it at all. The only unique identifier you have to hand is the microchip number.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 08 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
our vet is trying to convince my partner to have the pups nuts cut off.

i have no sympathy for them now!
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 16 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could you not ask the Royal College for advice on this on a pure hypothetical basis?
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 01:29 - 16 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ariel Badger wrote:
Could you not ask the Royal College for advice on this on a pure hypothetical basis?


They like to appear helpful but will then referr you to the code of conduct.

Was helpful in some ways because said code specifically says we have to put the owners name and the microchip number on a certificate but makes absolutely no mention of address (or of any need to verify an address as it happens). By implication, the proposal I put forwards to management of simply not putting the address on them seems like the simplest solution and fully complies with the rules.

Next batch of vaccine certificates will not have a space for the owners address on them.
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