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Road legal offroader that can take a pillion well.

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smdts
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 23 Oct 2023    Post subject: Road legal offroader that can take a pillion well. Reply with quote

I made the mistake of listening to the liars who say bmw f650gs are capable of going off road. Yes they can get you there very slowly, without any smiling whatsoever along the way while constantly grounding out the belly, bottoming their suspension, and having zero front end grip.
Looking for a cheap, very capable offroader that can carry a pillion well. Any suggestions?
Really like the klr650 but not much choice available just now and stupid money for really old bikes, plus i would like just a bit more power.
Honda crf450x - would need to fabricate a reinforcement for the subframe and somewhere to mount pillion pegs, and respring and revalve the rear shock, is it worth it? Who knows. Anyone tried?
Xr600/650 where did they all go? Once upon a time there were loads for sale now 1 or 2 in the whole country.
Dr650, i had overlooked these, because they seem old fashioned for their age, but suddenly started taking an interest again. There is a reasonably priced 790cc bigbore kit available, seems perfect. Too perfect? What are the downsides I am missing? Shite 90s brakes i suppose. There must be an upgrade path for that i would imagine.

No ktms. Never again. I fucking hate pushing a broken bike through mud. On too many occasions. Oil all over my new thor boots after endless expensive breakdowns i wanted to burn the fucker but had to recoup some money at least.

Africa twin? Never ridden one. Are they too heavy for bing bashing?

Xtz660 tenere? The last few yamahas I had were all loads of fun at full throttle, but didnt like part throttle bimbling with my daughter on the back, not much torque and flatsports until you gun it. Are these the same or are they better mannered. Too road biased or not? Had a wr250 a wr450 and an xt550, ty80, dt50, dt 125, dt250, 350ypvs, xs250, xs400, xs1100, fj1100, 701 waveblaster so kind of yamahad out for a while i think.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 23 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The carbed XTZ660s are very well behaved at lower speeds because they have a twin carb setup. They run on a single small slide carb up to about 1/3 throttle then pick up a big CV carb at larger throttle openings. Works very well.

Probably something of a handful offroad in terms of size and weight but no more so than a DR or KLR650.

Standard oddball recommendations: Enfield himalayan. Van Van 200.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

My xt550 was like that, 2 carbs 1 cylinder /2 girls 1 cup type setup.that didnt like to go slow, but it was a bit ratty, £200 bike with loads of blue smoke. Pretty quick though and swapped it for a 550 sx jetski so cant complain.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CCM 644 has the same engine as the DR650 and the suspension is far better and it comes with Brembo brakes. I had one until recently, not a bad bike if you don't mind it's quirks. They can be had for under £2k too.

XT660z is great, my brother has one that he only really rides on the road and he likes it and I've talked to a few local guys that love them offroad. Wouldn't pick one for serious off roading but I guess it depends what kind of stuff you are doing.

The CRF 250/350 seems popular around here but I dont know what they are like with a passenger.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ccm is an inspired suggestion, thank you, that deffo calls for deeper investigation. I wonder if that would take the 790 bigbore kit.
Had a go on a crf300, i was left wishing it had a bit more guts about it.
Probably thinking no to the xtz because dirt performance with a passenger is priority number 1
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at SWM bikes the other day. They make some bigger road legal enduro bikes which don't have pillion pegs. They also make a road legal street moto that does have pillion pegs. So would a set of SM500R pillion peg hangers bolt to an RS500R?

I suspect yes.

https://swm-motorcycles.it/wp-content/uploads/SWM0833-copia.jpg
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off-road pillion? Poor sod.

I recently came across the Fantic Caballero 500 which I’m considering for commuting and weekend B-road bimbling having frequently found myself on narrow country roads wondering whether a sportsbike was the right tool (although for getting there and back, it was). I have no idea about off-roading but it looks right to me.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/fantic/caballero-500-scrambler/2019/
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

smdts wrote:
Ccm is an inspired suggestion, thank you, that deffo calls for deeper investigation. I wonder if that would take the 790 bigbore kit.
Had a go on a crf300, i was left wishing it had a bit more guts about it.
Probably thinking no to the xtz because dirt performance with a passenger is priority number 1


Yeah you can fit the 790 kit but it has decent enough power stock I think. The engine is almost identical to the DR650, it's actually from the suzuki freewind and has twin carbs. Might be worth looking at the CCM 404 too which has the DRZ400 engine in it and they also did one with a 600cc Rotax engine.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
I was looking at SWM bikes the other day. They make some bigger road legal enduro bikes which don't have pillion pegs. They also make a road legal street moto that does have pillion pegs. So would a set of SM500R pillion peg hangers bolt to an RS500R?

I suspect yes.

https://swm-motorcycles.it/wp-content/uploads/SWM0833-copia.jpg


Cool but miles over my budget.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 21:05 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
smdts wrote:
Ccm is an inspired suggestion, thank you, that deffo calls for deeper investigation. I wonder if that would take the 790 bigbore kit.
Had a go on a crf300, i was left wishing it had a bit more guts about it.
Probably thinking no to the xtz because dirt performance with a passenger is priority number 1


Yeah you can fit the 790 kit but it has decent enough power stock I think. The engine is almost identical to the DR650, it's actually from the suzuki freewind and has twin carbs. Might be worth looking at the CCM 404 too which has the DRZ400 engine in it and they also did one with a 600cc Rotax engine.

There is such a thing as enough power?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you wanting to take a pillion when off-road?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:29 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP rejects perceived wisdom, wants to take a pillion off-road and thinks there is no such thing as enough power. Thinking
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smdts
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Are you wanting to take a pillion when off-road?

I already do frequently. Just my current bike is useless offroad solo or with a passenger. It was a bad decision I wont repeat.
My old bike was just a bit lacking being a 250.
Is there any downside to the ccm?
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smdts
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
The OP rejects perceived wisdom, wants to take a pillion off-road and thinks there is no such thing as enough power. Thinking

I had a cr500. Nothing on dirt feels the same ever since.
Myf650gs makes 50hp and is disappointing power wise. A dr650 is around 43hp, so it makes sense to think I will probably want a little bit more.
I drive a ~680hp car most days and i wouldnt complain if it had a bit more.
What wisdom have i rejected?
Because I dont want another slow boring bike?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trails you're wanting to ride at Broxburn Bing, are they public rights of way? The obvious answer is to get her on her own bike rather than you carrying ~60kg of pillion but her being 11 complicates things. Laughing
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smdts
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 24 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

She has an aprillia rx50, and she rides her sisters quad sometimes, but she prefers coming on the back of mine. I go easy when she is on the back but I want something I can go nuts with when she isn't.
That was the annoying thing about the last couple of yamahas, when going gentle with her on the back you would get hesitation and flat spots, they didnt really run clean unless you gun them. The f650 just doesnt handle mud or ruts at all.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 08:07 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the answer is 2 bikes. Perceived wisdom always used to be that for off road the lighter the better, but in latter years we’ve all been sold the kool aid of Adventure bikes being actual off roaders. It’s f’in bollocks of the highest degree. A lighter bike is always going to be better than a heavy one off road and you do not need a lot of power off road. For touring you need big, which usually means heavy. A BMW GS is NOT an off-roader it’s very much the equivalent of a BMW X5 - people want the image but never actually take them off road.

The only bike that comes to mind as a viable option for OPs essentially impossible ask is something like a KTM 690 enduro, but even that is compromised off road by its weight. Everything will be a trade off with these two requirements, so my suggestion is a GasGas EC300 for off road (or equivalent four stroke if you have no actual soul) and something like a UJM for pillioning like a Blandit 600 or similar.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 08:24 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i had space for 2 bikes I would have a crf450 and an st1100. Unless the boat goes I only have space for 1, and still having too much fun with that.
As it is i think i have narrowed it down to a cr450, dr650 or a ccm644 with the ccm looking best if I can find a good one.
The wr250 was almost right for what I like to do, and those 3 all seem to make up for the WR shortcomings.
I am not looking for the impossible. I dont really care how it is for on the road, road legal is just to ride it to the dirt.


Last edited by smdts on 10:41 - 25 Oct 2023; edited 1 time in total
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 08:51 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

smdts wrote:
If i had space for 2 bikes I would have a crf450 and an st1100. Unless the boat goes I only have space for 1, and still having too much fun with that.
As it is i think i have narrowed it down to a cr450, dr650 or a ccm644 with the ccm looking best if I can find a good one.
The wr250 was almost right for what I like to do, and those 3 all seem to make up for the WR shortcomings.


The best days of boat ownership are the day you get it and the day you get rid of it.

Moar bikes.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
smdts wrote:
If i had space for 2 bikes I would have a crf450 and an st1100. Unless the boat goes I only have space for 1, and still having too much fun with that.
As it is i think i have narrowed it down to a cr450, dr650 or a ccm644 with the ccm looking best if I can find a good one.
The wr250 was almost right for what I like to do, and those 3 all seem to make up for the WR shortcomings.


The best days of boat ownership are the day you get it and the day you get rid of it.

Moar bikes.

Its handy for scuba diving having your own boat instead of hiring one, plus the kids and their pals love being dragged around on my 4 seater inflatable banana. But yes its a mainainance headache, 2 highly strung 2 stroke engines in a cramped engine compartment where some jobs you have to do upside down with your legs sticking out the hatch. Mind you 2mpg and super unleaded only makes me question my sanity sometimes.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

smdts wrote:

Is there any downside to the ccm?

Just some of the build quality I guess, the electrics are not the best and the plastics are all cobbled together from various bikes. I sold mine because I wanted a more lightweight enduro.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Sounds like the answer is 2 bikes. Perceived wisdom always used to be that for off road the lighter the better, but in latter years we’ve all been sold the kool aid of Adventure bikes being actual off roaders. It’s f’in bollocks of the highest degree. A lighter bike is always going to be better than a heavy one off road and you do not need a lot of power off road. For touring you need big, which usually means heavy. A BMW GS is NOT an off-roader it’s very much the equivalent of a BMW X5 - people want the image but never actually take them off road.


This is very true. At a recent long distance trial, there were a few guys on slightly bigger ADV bikes. Now this isn't rock-hopping stuff, most of the sections are fairly steep or narrow footpaths or bits of greenlane (there's an odd proper obstacle thrown in there). First section was essentially a sheep path up a grass/heather slope. I waltzed up it on the Enfield 350 with its massive 11-ish bhp. Walk in the park for the other guys on twinshock greenlaners (betas and suchlike). Two ADV bikes on the run. The F650 never got away from the start line which was effectively a muddy gate mouth. The guy on the CCM 604 footed all the way up and dropped it twice. The BMW didn't even make it along the greenlane to the next section.

Not the riders, I'm green as grass when it comes to offroad riding and the enfield is the pinnacle of early 1950's offroad technology (when they were still arguing over wether a ridgid back end or one of these new-fangled swingarms was better offroad).

These ADV bikes are too big, too heavy and make too much power for offroad riding. They just sit in the mud and spin the wheels. I have a mate who does heavy enduro and rides a big KTM over some gnarly as hell stuff but it looks like a total struggle-bus from start to finish, someone would ride rings around it on a TTR225, or even a CT125.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about the weight, but not about the power. If a bike has a decent carb that works well at part throttle then there is no such thing as too much power. You will only get as much power at any one time as your wrist asks for. I just found the part throttle response on the WR flatslide wasnot great, even with a dynojet kit. 650 singles are much nicer lower in the rev range.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

smdts wrote:
I agree about the weight, but not about the power. If a bike has a decent carb that works well at part throttle then there is no such thing as too much power. You will only get as much power at any one time as your wrist asks for. I just found the part throttle response on the WR flatslide wasnot great, even with a dynojet kit. 650 singles are much nicer lower in the rev range.


But weight overrules all with offroading. A lighter bike with less power will still do better than a heavy bike with loads of power. I'd say a GasGas EC300 is about right...
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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smdts
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 25 Oct 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are they not 2stroke?
2 strokes generally aren't great for part throttle bimbling around. If they are 4 stroke, would that not be only marginally more powerful than my WR, which i already said wasnt powerful enough.
I already have 3 2 stroke engines to look after, thats enough for now.
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