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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH an arch is much more complex an idea than an pyramid.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Or looking at it another way. A pyramid is just a pile with straight sides. If you make a big heap of rocks, you get a cone. If you make a slightly more controlled heap of stones using cut stones laid straight, you get a pyramid.


I can see the logic behind the initial idea, however the precision and size of some of those cut stones still leave a lot unanswered questions.

We don't even know how old those pyramids are. I've recently heard a theory that some of the big stones used in Egypt were not even natural/cut stone. The precision of the stone walls with our inability to accurately do carbon dating* suggests those blocks could have been poured like concrete.

*meaing they found much younger stuff inside the blocks.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neolithic people (technically bronze-age, but they didn't have any metal tools) in the Northern Isles were building three story high, bell-curved tower houses with two concentric walls called Brochs out of drystone at about the same time as the pyramids. Some of them are still standing.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Bhud wrote:
I'm gonna think about ancient Egypt again, tonight. Predynastic Egypt, and how they made those precision cut vases. And about what the weathering marks on the the Sphynx mean. Again...


Yes, also do not forget that pyramids are on at least three continents (Africa, Asia, South America) and some of them with a plenty of similarities. I'm only talking about those pyramids that we found so far. Now, how's that possible? A pyramid sure is way too specific structure to be a pure coincidence. The builders either could do inter continental travel or maybe even could communicate with each other. The third alternative would be a much more advanced civilization telling the builders all over the world what a pyramid is and what shape should it be. Regardless of all that, it is odd that all those civilizations living so a apart from each other put special emphasis on the pyramid shape. Even when Egyptians ran out of money for more pyramids they still kept the shape in mind when building the King's valley. Thinking


The Egyptians traded all over the world. They used resins from south east asia in their embalming technique. International trading and sharing of ideas is nothing new at all.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:41 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carbon dating of rocks tells you when the rock was formed and not when it was shaped.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:41 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:
Or looking at it another way. A pyramid is just a pile with straight sides. If you make a big heap of rocks, you get a cone. If you make a slightly more controlled heap of stones using cut stones laid straight, you get a pyramid.


I can see the logic behind the initial idea, however the precision and size of some of those cut stones still leave a lot unanswered questions.

We don't even know how old those pyramids are. I've recently heard a theory that some of the big stones used in Egypt were not even natural/cut stone. The precision of the stone walls with our inability to accurately do carbon dating* suggests those blocks could have been poured like concrete.

*meaing they found much younger stuff inside the blocks.


There's a building in the Ness of Brodgar on Orkney with stonework of a standard that modern stone masons would struggle to achieve and that was built around 3,300 BC. What the ancient civilizations had was plenty of time and available labour to build to a high standard and perfect their masonry.

Masons have known about precision layout and measurement since ancient times.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Carbon dating of rocks tells you when the rock was formed and not when it was shaped.


No but you can carbon date organic matter found in the structures where Zod dropped a nutshell or some grain or a piece of bone was included for unknown reasons. You can also carbon date material found in floors and hearths which is why Archaeologists analyse floor and hearth structures with precise stratigraphy. Carbon dating is rarely used for rocks anyway as it's only good for stuff less than 50,000 years old.

With careful isotope analysis you can even tell what part of the world the organic material comes from. Or where people came from if you can get hold of a tooth or some bone.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:55 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


There's a building in the Ness of Brodgar on Orkney with stonework of a standard that modern stone masons would struggle to achieve and that was built around 3,300 BC. What the ancient civilizations had was plenty of time and available labour to build to a high standard and perfect their masonry.

Masons have known about precision layout and measurement since ancient times.


Is that the chambered cairn where the main chamber is illuminated by the midsummer sunrise shining down the tunnel?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, but there was no mention of middens or the like, just stuff found that were'younger' according to carbon dating.

Everything in my house is younger than my house apart from the structure. The big difference that the oyramids don't really have anything organic in their structure, just shit people dropped.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

Is that the chambered cairn where the main chamber is illuminated by the midsummer sunrise shining down the tunnel?


Box tunnel is approx 7 miles from where I sit....
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Agreed, but there was no mention of middens or the like, just stuff found that were'younger' according to carbon dating.

Everything in my house is younger than my house apart from the structure. The big difference that the oyramids don't really have anything organic in their structure, just shit people dropped.


And mummified bodies, written records, foodstuffs etc.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Islander wrote:


There's a building in the Ness of Brodgar on Orkney with stonework of a standard that modern stone masons would struggle to achieve and that was built around 3,300 BC. What the ancient civilizations had was plenty of time and available labour to build to a high standard and perfect their masonry.

Masons have known about precision layout and measurement since ancient times.


Is that the chambered cairn where the main chamber is illuminated by the midsummer sunrise shining down the tunnel?


No, that's Maeshowe cairn - that has some stunning corbelling and some interesting Viking graffiti though. Smile

The Ness of Brodgar is the piece of land between the bridge between the Lochs of Harray and Stenness and the Ring of Brodgar. It's a fairly recent excavation and is massive - they've barely uncovered 10% of the site.

https://www.nessofbrodgar.co.uk/
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 25 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Agreed, but there was no mention of middens or the like, just stuff found that were'younger' according to carbon dating.

Everything in my house is younger than my house apart from the structure. The big difference that the oyramids don't really have anything organic in their structure, just shit people dropped.


That's enough to provide carbon dating evidence.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what's really weird:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Egypt_Field_Museum.jpg/432px-Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Egypt_Field_Museum.jpg?20200313235006

Very hard stone - don't see how it could be done without a lathe. It's very precise, as one might expect from a lathed stone.

This thing is also a complete mystery:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Disk_of_Sabu

Made from schist, i.e. 6.5 to 7 on the Rockwell hardness scale.
Why and how? Some kind of hydraulic pump, I suppose. But how did they make it?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

They traditionally cut jade with a mud saw made from a piece of string. Neolithic people ground flint axe heads.

Don't underestimate what a hard abrasive and plenty of time can do.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

They could have chewed through it for all we know, but they had the Nile. All you've got to do is set up a water-mill and a pulley. Put 2 wheels against each other and you've got gearing. There's your lathe, or your grinder. That's what I think may have happened.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
This is what's really weird:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Egypt_Field_Museum.jpg/432px-Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Egypt_Field_Museum.jpg?20200313235006

Very hard stone - don't see how it could be done without a lathe. It's very precise, as one might expect from a lathed stone.


What you have there is a fine grained igneous rock called diorite. The white crystals are called phenocrysts and they're feldspar. Diorite has a rough hardness of 6 on the Mohs scale. Silicon dioxide (quartz) a major constituent of sand has a hardness of 7. There's a readily available abrasive. They would also have had access to garnet which has a Mohs hardness of 8-8.5 2 - 3 times as hard as silicon dioxide.

They also had plenty of time on their hands for fine work. Egyptians were masters of working diorite.

Bhud wrote:
This thing is also a complete mystery:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Disk_of_Sabu

Made from schist, i.e. 6.5 to 7 on the Rockwell hardness scale.
Why and how? Some kind of hydraulic pump, I suppose. But how did they make it?


It really isn't a mystery. It's thought to be for mixing grain. Schist is a complex rock. It's a highly foliated (layered) metamorphic rock formed at great depth and pressure during orogenic (mountain building) episodes. It can take a lot of forms but the main thing to take away from this is that it's not that hard a rock and if you have a specimen that's well consolidated, easily worked.

Ancient Egyptians were highly skilled craftsmen without the time pressures of modern society.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

What you have there is a fine grained igneous rock called diorite. The white crystals are called phenocrysts and they're feldspar. Diorite has a rough hardness of 6 on the Mohs scale. Silicon dioxide (quartz) a major constituent of sand has a hardness of 7. There's a readily available abrasive. They would also have had access to garnet which has a Mohs hardness of 8-8.5 2 - 3 times as hard as silicon dioxide.

They also had plenty of time on their hands for fine work. Egyptians were masters of working diorite.


Doing that by hand without any sort of machine would be a huge waste of time. Anyone involved in making these would be looking for time-saving, effort-saving ways to do this work. Get a bullock to walk in a circle (as with old village mills still in use in some parts of the world today) and you can grind grains, or other things. From there, you can think up a machine. It could be animal, slave or water-powered. Anything would be better than a guy with a stone in his hand carving that stuff out using a pestle-and-mortar action.

Additionally, the method you suggest (lots of time and a garnet) does not account for the extraordinary precision of that vase. It has external and internal symmetry which is far beyond what is possible with the human hand and the naked eye alone. The perfect symmetry of the Egyptian statues is another case in point. They must have had some kind of rotary machinery.


Islander wrote:
It really isn't a mystery.


Yes it is, and there are easier ways to mix and grind grains using mills than to make that complex shape from a single piece of schist rock.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:


Doing that by hand without any sort of machine would be a huge waste of time.


They had time in abundance. They were skilled craftsmen. They were very skilled in working diorite.

You can't judge an ancient civilisation by contemporary standards.

Islander wrote:
It really isn't a mystery.


Bhud wrote:

Yes it is, and there are easier ways to mix and grind grains using mills than to make that complex shape from a single piece of schist rock.


It really isn't a mystery. Read my previous comment on this post. Especially the last sentence.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 23:20 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

It really isn't a mystery. Read my previous comment on this post. Especially the last sentence.


I have a clear understanding of what you're saying. I just don't accept it because apart from betraying a childlike and demeaning attitude towards what was obviously a highly advanced civilisation as people who simply had too much time on their hands, it's also highly improbable and it isn't proved. To make that complex object out of a single piece of schist, with great accuracy, and filling in our gaps in information with just "they had a lot of time and they had sand", is just a guess until there's evidence to support this. Think about it and I suggest you look at a photo of that disc once again.

Just because something can be done a certain way in an experiment doesn't mean it was done that way.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 26 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Islander wrote:

It really isn't a mystery. Read my previous comment on this post. Especially the last sentence.


I have a clear understanding of what you're saying. I just don't accept it because apart from betraying a childlike and demeaning attitude towards what was obviously a highly advanced civilisation as people who simply had too much time on their hands, it's also highly improbable and it isn't proved. To make that complex object out of a single piece of schist, with great accuracy, and filling in our gaps in information with just "they had a lot of time and they had sand", is just a guess until there's evidence to support this. Think about it and I suggest you look at a photo of that disc once again.

Just because something can be done a certain way in an experiment doesn't mean it was done that way.


Show me exactly where my response showed a "childlike and demeaning attitude". The answer I've given you is one that is held by professional archaeologists and it applies to all of the old civilisations not just the ancient Egyptians. Ancient Egypt was a highly advanced civilisation? By measuring against their contemporaries, they had skilled masons and craftsmen and a well structured society but then so did other civilisations of the time and earlier. They were certainly a successful civilisation though.

One thing they all had was time in abundance - unlike us. They also had labour in abundance. You cannot judge an ancient civilisation by contemporary standards.

There's nothing exceptional about the disk. It's a tool and it was obviously made by a skilled craftsmen. So were a lot of other Egyptian artifacts. When you compare it to something like the Antikythera mechanism, it's nothing special.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 27 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

They had enough time to clear boulders off roads by repeatedly building hot fires around them until they were really hot then dousing them with vinegar until they fractured.

Hell, we made a canal network in the UK using Irish people with spades and wheelbarrows.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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BanditsHigh
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 27 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards the vessels made from really hard stone ... there are narrow necked vessels with wall thicknesses which are perfectly uniform throughout the vessel ... there are no modern techniques available which could perform this sort of operation ... supposedly.

Another mystery ... the granite sarcophagus underground at the Sarapeum of Saqqara ... ranging in weight between 70-300 tons ... placed into alcove below the level of the main central tunnel ... very little room to manoeuvre ... how did they get there?

Construction wise, the absolute precision of the flat surfaces, parallel and perpendicular to each other, both internally and externally ... the inside corners are perfect 90 degree cuts with no discernible radius ... with modern tools we'd be hard pressed to create something similar.

And all of this done with copper chisels supposedly.

We "modern" people are very arrogant, we think we are the most technologically advanced version of the human race there has ever been ... electronics wise maybe, but the ancients knew a shit ton about how to do other things which we can't or require machines to do!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 27 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

BanditsHigh wrote:

We "modern" people are very arrogant, we think we are the most technologically advanced version of the human race there has ever been ... electronics wise maybe, but the ancients knew a shit ton about how to do other things which we can't or require machines to do!


I think they understood how to use reference surfaces and bits of string.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 27 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

BanditsHigh wrote:
With regards the vessels made from really hard stone ... there are narrow necked vessels with wall thicknesses which are perfectly uniform throughout the vessel ... there are no modern techniques available which could perform this sort of operation ... supposedly.

Another mystery ... the granite sarcophagus underground at the Sarapeum of Saqqara ... ranging in weight between 70-300 tons ... placed into alcove below the level of the main central tunnel ... very little room to manoeuvre ... how did they get there?

Construction wise, the absolute precision of the flat surfaces, parallel and perpendicular to each other, both internally and externally ... the inside corners are perfect 90 degree cuts with no discernible radius ... with modern tools we'd be hard pressed to create something similar.

And all of this done with copper chisels supposedly.

We "modern" people are very arrogant, we think we are the most technologically advanced version of the human race there has ever been ... electronics wise maybe, but the ancients knew a shit ton about how to do other things which we can't or require machines to do!


They had the time to do the work accurately and to a high standard of perfection. Just because they were an ancient civilisation doesn't mean that they couldn't measure accurately.
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