ULEZ and historic bikes

[Bhud]

I just want to share some thoughts about this.

For background, I do one or two project bikes, always Japanese, every year, because:

1) I want the sensation of riding those bikes because there's something about them I find interesting.
2) It's like a combo of jigsaw puzzle, problem solving, amateur detective work, dexterity, etc. but all on a low-ish level. It keeps a section of my brain occupied that would otherwise have no outlet.
3) I know my limits and I don't want unnecessary mechanical trouble for stupid reasons, hence I stick to Japanese.
4) I just like that historic period a lot.

My one virtue in these waste-of-money projects is that I always see them through to completion. I also like the fanbase and community around Japanese vintage bikes. It's a world that's easy to live with.


Here are my observations:

1) A bike can work well and look great, but it's hiding the bodges of 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 different owners. Bad wiring, a rattle they were unable to fix so they bodged, an ignition timing plate someone has drilled holes in and screwed with to solve a nonexistent problem, completely seized up bolts, stripped threads on unobtainable parts in carbs, etc.
2) You most often see true vintage classics at events, and if you stick around to the end, you see quite beautiful bikes being ridden away, after the owner has spent about 4 minutes trying to start them before wobbling away (proving that it's not their daily bike). Of course, there are people who ride Z650s or Z900s daily, but they're the exception.
3) ULEZ and its imminent expansion is deeply unpopular, and many people are now talking about getting around it by means of a 40+ year old bike.

I would like to state, quite categorically, that historic bikes are not suitable as a means to skirt ULEZ. By all means, get an older bike which complies with ULEZ standards, but not a "historic" bike (i.e. 40 year old). If budget is an issue, get a used CBF500 from 2006 or 2007, and a Certificate of Conformity from Honda, which TfL will accept. It's an excellent bike. It will run like new at 120k miles (I've seen this) with nothing but regular oil changes.

Here are my reasons:

1) 40-year old bikes are mostly aircooled. London traffic (including the outskirts) is stop-and-start, and low speed. It's full of tightly controlled 20mph zones and traffic light junctions where roundabouts or less complex traffic controls used to be. Also, it's difficult to filter in some of the places where it was once easy, because of new lanes and road layouts. Suzuki Bandit 600/1200, Kwak GT550/750 and other bikes that used to be great in these areas a long time ago would now have to crawl along at low speeds, getting hot in the rush hour. Overheating is a risk. Apart from that, with carbs, they have to be exactly right when you're doing this kind of riding. A bit rich and they get a bit too caked from unburned carbon deposits, and in that situation you will be stuck on the side of the road wondering what's wrong, why it's firing on 3, etc.

2) Are you (and this probably doesn't apply to any members on this forum) someone accustomed to only modern bikes, water-cooled, with ABS brakes and frames that don't flex? London isn't all slow. Some of it is pretty fast. A lot of 40+ year old bikes are downright gnarly at speed, so while the engine is more than capable of doing a fast overtake, the frame will flex and make for an unpleasant experience. This is just to note, because some people who come from the world of modern bikes with no experience of these things might think 40+ year old bikes are just an engine and 2 wheels just like what they're used to, and they would be wrong.

3) The parts situation is getting bad. OK, big parts: conrods, cranks, camshafts, etc. These things are getting worn down every time you use the bike. And they've had plenty of wear already, in the case of 40+ year old bikes... But also little things, such as tappet adjustment screws. An aircooled engine with rockers will have sideways play in them. The tappet adjustment screws get uneven wear. Can you get them for the "ubiquitous" 40+ year old bike you have in mind? Things like Hy-Vo chains, bearings, seals, even pistons and ring sets, you can still get (but not always) in many cases. But that camshaft when it's out of limit? You're gonna replace it with a used one that's also been worn down over 40 years, and it will most likely be an unknown quantity, from Ebay. When it comes to worn engine cases, shell bearings, etc. what are you gonna do? The time will come when expensive remachining will be necessary. Allen Millyard will be in high demand but there are very few people like him. Have you tried to use the services of a classic car engineering workshop recently? They are inundated with work. Replacement engines for 40+ year old bikes are getting very expensive (for what they are) on Ebay. If you buy one, you're likely paying 2 or 3 times the price of a superior design of engine from the late 1980s.

4) This brings us on to the classic bike effect on price. Let's take a CB500T from the 70s. Fantastic bike, high tech for the time. Now an appreciating classic. But mechanically inferior in every way to every Japanese 500 twin from the late 1980s or later (except the GS500). So you'll be paying a lot for engines and parts on one of these, to get an inferior bike to an ER5... It doesn't make sense to make this your London ULEZ commuting solution. Would be a nice investment though, if you pour a bit of money into getting it painted, etc.

5) Tyres and other parts - add the price of these to a constant need to replace the oil on an aircooled primitive engine you're dailying into London... The oil is being broken down faster by the high temperatures caused by extended idling in traffic. You need to constantly replace it because of this, and you will be constantly worrying about not getting to 30+mph for extended periods. So you're not saving any money at all over, say, a 2007 CB500, which is also ULEZ exempt (when you present your CoC) and which is watercooled and indestructible. You're actually spending more money to get an inferior result in terms of performance, sunk costs, maintenance and depreciation.

6) Information quality is deteriorating really fast. There are enthusiasts' forums still, but they typically have 1 or 2 members who specialise in any particular bike. This is a problem because you need the old guys who know those bikes. Example: my current project (complete) has wrong info online AND in all the manuals on things as basic as number of final drive chain links, horsepower, oil capacity, etc. Also there are little things, like, how many people nowadays know how to adjust a 3-adjustment-point clutch cable? Which adjuster do you touch first? Etc.

Of course there are lots and lots more reasons, but those are enough for now, to show why I don't think it's a good idea as of right now (2023) to take a historic bike as your daily rider, into ULEZ. Too much typing for one day... Just in case anyone is thinking of thumbing their nose at Khan in this particular way. I think it's an own goal and I want to put that out there so that anyone who comes across this can think about it and weigh up their choices.

[redeem ouzzer]

What the fuck was that autistic bollocks all about? It’s like the second coming of teffers and almost as Ill informed.

Unless it’s something really obscure or valuable you can ride an old bike every day in any situation. Sure some are better suited than others but it’s not generally an issue as long as it’s got enough power.
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Be a REAL MAN!

[Bhud]

Well that's your opinion and while we all hope you're right I don't think you are. You can ride an old bike every day until you can't because it's fucked.

[Easy-X]

I did a thread a while back about considering '80s bikes when they hit "historic." For '70s it's a mixed bag, the KZ1000 I've been working on is just as good as a modern bike for power and fun but I take your point about sitting in traffic. Surely an early '80s single or small twin would be fine?

But where I was going was there may be no choice but historic bikes as the current exemption for Euro3+ will probably go in the bin as we approach the 2030 EV apocalypse.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Polarbear]

Wheres Teffers,
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[jeffyjeff]

[Bhud]

You should consider stopping doing that.

My post was long but I've been playing with these old bikes for a number of years. You don't daily a 40 year old bike into London. You ride modern bikes.

There are people who seriously think that old bikes are simple and "bulletproof" and that there's a "loophole", but there are certain realities of which they may be unaware, which I have detailed.

Hate to say this, but the forum should also reconsider its position on MAG, vis a vis its actions regarding ULEZ.

[ThunderGuts]

FWIW, I thought an interesting read. I see a few other issues too; older bikes are possibly more vulnerable to corrosion so year-round commuting on salty roads isn't going to help that. The other thing (and I can only go on what I read/watch as I've not seen it) is given the levels of attempted thefts in that London these days, is a historic bike going to sustain minor damage on a regular basis when someone tampers with it? Might have the best chain in the world which physically stops them moving it, but they might still mess with it anyway. You're then back in the world of sourcing replacement parts which on a 15 year old bike would probably be far easier to get.

If I was commuting on two wheels in London, unless I had some massive stretch of motorway or high speed road, I'd be on either middleweight twin (ER5/ER6 etc..) or a 125, the latter of which I presume if fairly modern will pass ULEZ requirements.
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TG.

[sickpup]

I can't be bothered to read what you wrote but you are probably wrong.

[blurredman]

I don't have a bike newer than 1990. And for many years I've commuted/'every day-ed' a bike from 1981.

For the last year and a half I've 'every day-ed' and commuted on an 1972.

Admittedly not into london, but every day commuting use nonetheless.



If you know your bikes and do your own research into them and symptoms of problems, and fix them as they go you'll keep them forever.
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CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S, 1979 MZ TS150.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 10k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 39k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 50k.

[Robby]

What a load of bollocks.

Some bits of it are true. Some decent parts for old bikes are getting harder to find.

The big bit where you're wrong is the idea that it's the end of the world when unobtanium parts get worn out. It isn't, it just means you need to replace the engine or scrap the bike. In the case of major engine parts, it's something that has already lasted 40 years with the kind of maintenance and parts that cheap bikes get. It's going to do another 40 with modern oils and the kind of care a classic bike gets.

The overheating bit is utter bollocks. Air cooled engines from the 70s and 80s were built to handle a very wide range of temperatures. They did that with a few clever cooling solutions, and just by being built a bit looser to allow them to operate over a wide band of temperatures. Liquid cooling allowed for engines to be built tighter, which is better for power, efficiency and emissions. Sitting in London traffic is not going to seize my CB250.

[Easy-X]

[A100man]

[grr666]

If I rode into London on the regular, after many years earning my wage driving on it's streets in one capacity or
another. I'd buy a shitter, no more than £1500 worth, get it given a full once over by a mechanic and run it into
the ground, assuming I was able to keep it unstolen for that long. Then repeat. I would not run anything I particularly
wanted to remain in ownership of anywhere near London, tbh I avoid stopping in certain parts of Bristol for the
same reason. I usually ride out, stop somewhere quiet for a piss and drink break then ride back with a stop at
the petrol station half a mile from my house for a fill up ready for next time. TBH I never leave my bike anywhere
unattended for more than about 5 minutes. I could buy 10 £1500 quid bikes for what my MT10 cost and if I had to
use a bike for commuting then that's what I'd do. An old fazer 600 or ER5 would be the sort of thing I'd be looking at.
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Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[Bhud]

[Nobby the Bastard]

I've never had a air cooled bike overheat. My RG (liquid cooled) overheated and started to speed up the engine in the garage and continued after the ignition was turned off because of the heat.

I had to stall it in the end to stop it. they don't have fans btw.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[Easy-X]

[slowasyoulike]

Happily, my days of flogging a bike to work and back are over, but when I was engaged in such activity I employed a 1973 C50 with a Chinese 110cc engine. The only problem I had was that on the WOT stretches the oil got very hot, so I fitted one of those cheesy anodised eBay oil coolers, which did the job.

Thankfully I live nowhere near London, but if I did - and I had to commute for a living again - that'd be how I'd deal with this shit. No road tax, no ULEZ... nothing.

As for the OP, couldn't disagree more... a CD175/185/200/CB250 etc. is more than a match for the job in hand.

[Robby]

Having commuted into London using a CB250 for years, on and off, no it isn't ever going to overheat in London traffic.

Come to think of it, nor have any of the wide range of vehicles I've used for commuting, or just going straight across central London to get to the M1. Everything from well-maintained new cars, utter shitboxes, and more bikes than I can count with my socks off.

FYI, for when I'm going into central I do prefer the 250, it's narrow and light. Of course, with the amount of work I've put into it, it's probably the most valuable thing that I own.

[Bhud]

That's fair enough, but what we really need is a scientific test. There will come a point at which, after idling in traffic for a long time, your bike will overheat. When will that happen, and at what ambient temperature. I'm not sure how to design such a test but it needn't involve actually riding into London. It can be simulated. Alternatively, we can ask Honda. They would have surely tested this.

In the 20th century, there was a time when most cars on the road, not just bikes, were aircooled. However, road conditions were different. They were less crowded. There is no issue with aircooled engines as long as air is passing over them. Hotspots in the Far East where Honda stepovers and mopeds are the rule move slowly but they do move. Congestion and new traffic rules and road design in London in recent years combine to result in different conditions where you might not, for example, be able to filter forward when in a long line of stopped traffic. I am not a London rider but the last time I was there was before the Covid-related road reorganisations, and I did actually clip someone's mirror. Of course I apologised and it wasn't an issue (would have paid for it anyway), but the point is it isn't the same as it was. I was also surprised to find that that area near the Tate (over the bridge) has lots of high density flats built there now, and the roads around are 20mph roads. I wasn't there in the rush hour but I can imagine what it's like.

Point being, we need to design an experiment here and find out.
Clue is that you invested a lot of time into your CB250. I completely understand that. I didn't do much to my last project's engine, but I did replace the primary drive train, starter clutch rollers and springs, did a head refresh, replaced the ignition system and did a lot of reworking of the fueling system. That's actually minor engine work for a historic bike, in the overall scheme of things. So, even if you're right and the bike won't overheat no matter what, it still raises some doubt over whether the advice that there's a way to "evade" ULEZ in this way is good and sensible advice, as long as there are cheap CB500Fs from the 2000s still around which don't have to pay ULEZ either.

[Robby]

Have you ever been assessed for autism?

[Bhud]

Has your CB250 ever been assessed for your claim it will never overheat?

[BTTD]

Old Harleys can overheat on hot days during slow moving parades, several hours
in 40 degree heat. Some owners have fitted auxiliary oil coolers and even fans to blow air across the cylinders. If you had a 1980 BMW boxer in London I doubt you'd ever have a problem, and if you were worried you could fit an oil cooler and a fan on the cooler. An old bike will need rubber hoses and seals renewing and probably worth replacing most of the electrics. You could have a daily 40yr old vehicle if you really wanted to.

[Bhud]

Oh for sure you could, if you really wanted to. But nobody actually does it, because it's eccentric as fuck and fraught with pointless hardship and makes no economic sense for as long as there are later bikes that don't have to pay because they meet Euro 3 or because they pass the Riverbank test. I mean, AFAIK, the user Hellkat here has posted that they ride a late 80s 4-cylinder bike regularly in London. Apart from that, nobody.

I mean, imagine driving this into central London, not for a show or for an event or to visit relatives or whatever, but daily, in the rush hour, to get to work or your place of business:

https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2717147733_ce782186f3_z.jpg

That's the equivalent.

[Pete.]