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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 22:26 - 06 Mar 2023  Post subject: |
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| Easy-X wrote: | I think we can all agree that the US penal system is pretty bad all over. Keeping people on death row indefinitely seems unusually cruel. |
Imo, the answer is not to sentence people to death, but to put them to work helping to repair the damage they have done, perhaps in service of the families or communities they have harmed in some way.
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BTTD
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chickenstrip
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Posted: 05:12 - 07 Mar 2023  Post subject: |
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| BTTD wrote: |
As to the morality of killing, we've sent thousands overseas to kill for country so the concept is not morally off the table for most people. |
No, but at the bottom line, it is wrong. You know this. War is not something we want. If you remove the notion that it is never right, then things can start to slide, and people, nations, begin to make up their morals to suit themselves, to suit the current situation in their favour.
Imagine a world where every single person thought killing others was always wrong. Then you could never have wars, nobody would fight them.
As it is, we don't live in that world, probably never will, but you have to have the morality to know killing is wrong, even if you find yourself having to do it to defend your own. I served in the Armed Forces myself, and would have carried out my duties in war as required of me. That still doesn't make it right, morally.
Something to think about is that surveys have shown that very few on a battlefield actually make effective killers. Many point their weapons in the general direction of the enemy, but don't actually aim with an intention to kill a specific target. Only very few do that. This happens even though many of those on that battlefield think they have right on their side. Why is that?
These are the deepest kinds of questions we can ask ourselves as human beings, and I do not denigrate those who believe that there are special circumstances where the death penalty should be used. I just disagree with it.
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 09:52 - 07 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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Let's be real here, the goal of not killing anyone is very noble but at some point it's kill or be killed. There is an alternative though...
"Killing a human being is wrong."
Fine, totally agree. Now define "human." One could argue that some crimes are so heinous only a rabid animal could have done it. At least a court deciding on someone's humanity would be more reasonable vs. wartime propaganda that paints the other team as less than human.
"Human" is just a convenient label, conceptually it would be defining the criminal as "other" and outside the normal laws and punishments a citizen is afforded. It doesn't have to be just about the death penalty either, certain Channel inflatable enthusiasts clearly shouldn't be afforded the same rights - arguably they have more rights at the moment - as native citizens.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 00:46 - 08 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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| BTTD wrote: |
We are now paying to keep them warm, sheltered, fed and locked up until they die.
Killing is wrong, imperfect solutions for an imperfect world. |
Which is why I say put them to work to help repair the damage they have done, or otherwise make them useful to us. We don't have to keep them in luxury...just tolerable basics.
I agree that we will never have the perfect solutions to all these issues. We just have to try to do our best.
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MCN
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| Posted: 23:49 - 08 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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You can't really ask convicted criminals to work to help pay back society for the crimes wot they done did.
That would be humiliation.
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 23:57 - 08 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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Putting prisoners to work is not slavery. They have committed crime, this is part of their punishment.
For goodness sake, you can't humiliate them!  Nah, just execute them. 
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Easy-X
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 03:38 - 09 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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| Easy-X wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Putting prisoners to work is not slavery. |
While I broadly agree with the sentiment they do it quite a bit in the US and the way they run it... not hard to argue it's Slavery 2.0  |
Is there some rule book somewhere, some immutable law that says it has to be done in a certain way? Because the Americans have a way of doing it, or because this or that society did it a certain way in the past, everyone else has to follow that format? Or do people just love to cry out "omg, Slavery!! " ? Like certain idiots always seem to have to cry out "omg, Nazi! " ? Happy to put people to death, but find it immoral to get a hard day's work out of them?  Peculiar sense of morals some folks have.
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BTTD
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| Posted: 10:26 - 09 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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It's a bit like communism. Every time it starts out with this time it'll be different, and then people get involved and before you know it, it's all gone to siht.
Anyway, no matter what you get these slaves doing they're not going to cover the cost of their incarceration. So we as the tax payers are funding their slave existence.
In short, why do you want to own slaves?
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 15:18 - 09 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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Just to divert the thread even more...
Slavery isn't quite the economic panacea people thought it was back in the day. Forcing people to work for less than they're worth (slavery is not zero income BTW, it'd at least have to be subsistence else all your slaves quickly die of starvation) is building your economy on sand. Sparta and the Roman Empire are great examples of this. Importing slaves into the labour force is analogous to diluting the silver currency with tin. Just saying you don't need to leverage the "slavery is bad, m'kay" moral argument  And Communism leans into "Capitalism pays workers less than they're worth" (implying effective slavery) by utilising the flawed labour theory of value.
Anyhoo, back to slave labour in prisons. There at least were (not sure about now) things private manufacturers couldn't make because the prison population stamped out - literally in the case of number plates - state subsidised products.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:40 - 09 Mar 2023 Post subject: |
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| BTTD wrote: | It's a bit like communism. Every time it starts out with this time it'll be different, and then people get involved and before you know it, it's all gone to siht. |
It's nothing like communism. You could use that logic to avoid trying anything. For e.g., "if we introduce the death penalty, innocent people will end up being executed." Or, "if we don't introduce the death penalty, people will continue to commit horrendous crimes." It's not an argument at all.
And if people aren't in charge of the affairs of people, who or what do you suggest should be?
Who or what should decide whether or not we introduce the death penalty? Who or what should administer it all if it is introduced? You don't trust people (you are one of them I presume?), so what; cats? dogs?
Or you can vote for inertia: "I prefer to moan about stuff but not try to do anything about it."
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 1 year, 48 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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