CB600F-Y suddenly dead after a ride

[markypea]

2000 CB600F-Y, went out for a ride, all was fine, started up perfectly fine mid-ride. Got back home (thankfully given what happened next), went to put it away a minute later, key on, fuel pump primes, oil light comes on, pressed the starter, nothing, total silence.

Key on, in neutral, side-stand up, clutch in, kill switch on run, silence (other than fuel pump).

Only had it a few weeks, third time of riding it, not a great start. It's got a decent amount of "after market" wiring about it.

Pushed it up the slope into the garage, after some Googling attempted to start by turning on the ignition and jumping the starter relay, it cranked but would not start.

It's almost like the side stand kill, like when you put the side-stand down and it's in gear the engine turns off. But the side-stand is up, and it's in neutral anyway.

Having been away from biking for a couple of years, I splurged £1k on this as a little run-around for popping to see my mother in her care-home a few miles away. Glad that it at least started there and conked out at home!

[A100man]

If it's not even turning over then I'd suspect one of teh 'asfety' interlock switches as you mention. Sidestand, clutch lever neutral etc..
these can generally be bypassed for elimination purposes.

A correct wiring diagram will be helpful to you.
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Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750

Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600

[markypea]

So, I checked the clutch and side-stand switches, they both pass. I'm not sure what the clutch switch does really, and the bike should start on the side-stand if it's in neutral. I'll have to find the neutral switch (the neutral light does come on). When I traced the side-stand wire to the plug under a little clear cover, instead of lots of plugs that I was expecting to see, there was a lot of insulation tape and soldered wires, so that wasn't a great find! I also found a couple of chopped off wires on what looks like the main loom. So I feel like this bike might have a history of electrical issues! Poop!

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Can you jump start it from another battery? I’m thinking the bike battery wasn’t being charged as you rode.

[blurredman]

[markypea]

I always keep it on charge, and the charger went to "charged" after half an hour or so, so I guess that it was charging. When I shorted the starter relay it was turning over eagerly, but not firing, otherwise I would just presume that it's the starter relay.

After testing the switches this morning, and the charger reading as the battery is charged, I tried again. I get nothing from the relay, no click or anything.

What are "phase wires"?

[stinkwheel]

https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=106705

FFS

Do you want us to help you track down whoever did that and give them a good slap?

Ok. You need a logical approach. We know the main power is fine because the dash is lighting up. The ignition key is probably ok. The neutral light is working so that should pretty much bypass all the safety interlock nonsense while it's in neutral. You know there's power to the solenoid and that the starter itself works.

So what's left? Starter button. Solenoid, igniotion fuse. The wiring between them. HISS. Kill switch.

HISS first. So you turn the ignition on. Neutral, oil pressure and HISS lights should come on. After a few seconds, the HISS light should go out. If not, that's your problem.

Visually check the fuse.

Then it's voltmeter/circuit tester out. Is there power getting to the starter switch? Is power coming out of it when it's pressed. If not, what's the kill switch doing? If it is, is that power getting to the solenoid? If it is it's the solenoid.

In my experience, Honda solenoids die after about 20 years, so it's on borrowed time. Both my 90's VFRs have had new ones.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[markypea]

HISS - I don't think that it has it. My previous CBRs all did, this key doesn't look like it's got a chip in. I don't have any lights in relation to it on the dash.

I visually checked the fuse in the starter relay, it's a fat 30amp fuse and looks fine.

I was going to try pressing the starter and seeing if I get any volts on the low amps wires going to it. The only thing that makes me think that it's not just the solenoid was that it wasn't firing when it was cranking. I've not ridden it much at all, however every time I started it it burst into life.

It feels like an immobiliser/safety switch issue, but I don't know that it is. It's pretty maddening. Makes me nervous about going out on it. All my previous Hondas were only a few years old when I bought them, although my last 1000RR I kept for 12 years, and it was perfect. But then it was kept in a nice cosy garage and only saw Silverstone on Sunny days. I didn't realise that the wiring was like this when I bought it, but it was a pretty on the whim decision to buy it, and it ran fine when I viewed it. I found that harnesses are £40-60 on ebay, so I am tempted to go that route if it continues to play me up.

[stinkwheel]

There's a 2000 FY in my shed which has HISS. I know because just I went down to check what the sequence of lights was when you turn the ignition on and if the kill switch stops the starter motor turning (it does). Amber light with a key next to it on the temperature guage

There are other fuses in a fuse box, one of which is an ignition fuse. The 30A fuse is the main fuse, if it blew, everything would be dead. The others protect sub-systems. I think the fuse box is under one of the fairing fill panels below the right handlebar near the top right corner of the radiator.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Easy-X]

Maybe HISS was something a previous owner did away with, judging from the pictures so far
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[markypea]

So, I checked, I don't have that light. I remember my 2001 CBR600F-Sport having HISS. I think that the word was around the ignition barrel as well. This bike is purely analogue, so maybe it's older, I don't know. I don't see anything. I found a fuse box on the left hand side, it had lighting related fuses in, four ten amp ones. There were spaces where the headlight ones should be (they're probably in the leather pouch behind the headlights in the nest of wiring). The only other fuse that I've been able to find was in the relay itself. I've got a pdf of the manual and that does match with that.

[markypea]

Well. I reckon it's the relay. I was thinking (lying in bed awake) shorting the terminals was sparking a bit, so it's not a great connection. I shorted them again just now with a pair of pliers, and after some cranking it fired into life, it died a few seconds later and I couldn't restart it, however it did fire. I tested continuity on the wires going into the relay, and I did find one where there was a resistance drop when I pressed the starter button, so that must also be working.

I'm going to order a new relay.
Update
Ordered one on Amazon, it stated only years CB600F 2004 and 2006, however other relays that I saw just covered like 1998 to 2015, plus the photo looked the same.

[markypea]

New solenoid turned up. Fitted it. Made no difference. Pretty gutted about that!
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Now: 2000 CB600f Then: 2001 CBR600-FSport, 2001 CBR929RR, 2006 CBR1000RR, 2000 Ex-Police ST1100, 1998 CR250R

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

I still think you might just have a bad battery. I know the mains charger says it’s full but volts are easy, amps are harder. What charger do you have, and how old? Yes, after charging it will crank and maybe power a few low-amperage lights but maybe there’s not enough current to fire up the ignition as well. It’s easy to check by connecting jump leads to another battery. There’s no need to start the car if that’s the other battery you’re connecting to.

The phase wires blurredman mentioned are attached to the alternator.

[WD Forte]

The 3 way connectors between stator and rectifier often burn out
but that's a shabby fix aint it?
That's a temporary/get you home fix at best and needs putting right
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bikers smell of wee

[RhynoCZ]

Every single Honda I've ever bought had a burned stator sooner or later (faulty charging). Also, I once bought a bike with no-brand battery that would show 12.6V however the amperage was unmeasurable with my multimeter, in other words the battery was dead regardless of the ''healthy'' voltage.

So, I would fit a fresh battery and then do all the charging system tests. Search the BCF, there are a plenty of tutorials.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[stinkwheel]

It's not the battery, he already said it turns over and starts when you short across the solenoid.

Even if it doesn't have enough oomph to keep it going, it is certainly enough to make the solenoid click.

I'm going iffy starter button or a wiring fault.

There should be a block connector for the right hand switchgear. Disconnect this and with the ignition on, short between the black wire and the red on yellow wire with a paperclip or similar, the solenoid should click and the engine should turn over. It won't start. If it turns over, you have a dodgy switch. You could check there is 12v in the black wire too.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[markypea]

Hi,

The last couple of posts came in since I got up before work to play about.

I have one of those Noco boost boxes, connected that, same.
I also have a battery from my Mum's car, it was dead when I went to collect the car from Devon, so I didn't have time to charge it so I just bought a new battery and fitted that. I charged it with my charger (15 year old Optimate 3) and it looked ok. Anyway I connected that to the bike as well, same.

I put the multimeter into the back of the plug going into the starter relay. I was getting 12.1v on all four of them in combinations. I don't know how it works. I get 12.6v on the battery.

I'm going to try the paper clip thing (once I've made a coffee!).

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. I'm am 100% clueless, but I'd like to learn and fix it myself rather than just pay somebody.
____________________
Now: 2000 CB600f Then: 2001 CBR600-FSport, 2001 CBR929RR, 2006 CBR1000RR, 2000 Ex-Police ST1100, 1998 CR250R

[stinkwheel]

[markypea]

So bridging the red on yellow and black wire with a paper clip the bike turns over. For the life of me I cannot get it to start. I gave up as I don't want to burn out the starter. Perhaps the kill switch it falsely set to kill if the contents of the switch gear is knackered? I eventually got the connector apart and sprayed some isopropanol and tried to clean some of the pins, but it didn't make any difference.

Oh, also the cables and all that were in a leather pouch behind the headlights. (I had to remove some of the bolts that hold the aftermarket headlight assy on to allow it to drop down to access it.) I am assuming that this is not standard. Where is this jumble of wires on a standard bike then?
____________________
Now: 2000 CB600f Then: 2001 CBR600-FSport, 2001 CBR929RR, 2006 CBR1000RR, 2000 Ex-Police ST1100, 1998 CR250R

[stinkwheel]

Ok. As i said, bridging that wire will make the starter turn over but it won't start like that because the power is disconnected from the CDI when that connector block is unplugged. It was a test and a successful one, your starter circuit is broadly working.

Your problem is either the starter switch itself or the kill switch.
You can test the switches easily.

Set your multimeter set to read resistance in kiloohms. When there is an open circuit, it will read high. When there is a good connection it will read zero or near zero (you can check this by toughing the leads together).

Disconnect the connector block connected to the right hand switch gear and measure between the white on black and the red on yellow wires on the switch side of it. They should read high normally and low when the starter button is pressed. If not, your starter switch is broken.

Now measure between the black and the white on black. They should read low with the kill switch in the run position and high with it in the kill position. If not your kill switch is broken.

If that's ok, measure between the red on yellow and the black with the kill switch on run and the starter button pressed. It should read low. If not, there is a broken connection inside the switchgear.

Regards the wiring. It has an aftermarket fibreglass fairing fitted. Most of the wiring is standard and would normally be tucked inside the standard round headlamp shell.

I can see a relay on the second picture which is not standard. It's the black box cable tied to the left indicator mount. This is probably because they have fitted a higher power headlamps and are trying to avoid overloading the switch wiring. This is the correct thing to do if it has been done properly. I'd imagine it connects into the headlamp bulb. It shouldn't cause a starting problem unless they have butchered wiring for other circuits to tap into them. Given the previous pictures of wiring, this is possible but your last test above suggests it probably isn't the case, at least as far as getting the starter to turn over on the button is concerned.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[markypea]

Fixed it!!

Starter was ok, but the kill switch was constant no continuity. Dismantled the rhs switches and took the kill switch apart, gave it a little rub with some fine grit and isopropanol, tested it again with it apart all fine and the bike started straight away, rebuilt and tested it again, it all fine. Put everything back to how it was before I started this, all good.

Thank you so much for your invaluable guidance, would have been so much harder without you telling me which colour wires to check. I like to feel like I've learnt something from this.
____________________
Now: 2000 CB600f Then: 2001 CBR600-FSport, 2001 CBR929RR, 2006 CBR1000RR, 2000 Ex-Police ST1100, 1998 CR250R

[Robby]

While it's working, it's a good time to go over the wiring and fix any bodges you find. Twisted and taped wires are bad news, fix them with solder and heat shrink.

It's also good to do this when the bike is working, because if it stops working you can work back through what you've done to find your mistake.

Think of it as a long overdue service. Dodgy wiring will fail at the worst possible time.

[doggone]

The picture with all the taped wires suggests you might have further problems.
If those connections are just wires twisted together you could improve it mightily for under £5 yourself.

[markypea]

I assume that those wires with the electrical tape on were originally joined by connectors. I'll purchase some of those sealed bullet connectors and put those in there.
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Now: 2000 CB600f Then: 2001 CBR600-FSport, 2001 CBR929RR, 2006 CBR1000RR, 2000 Ex-Police ST1100, 1998 CR250R