Counter-steering

[meyrick]

I just had a really good ride...and here's why:

My dad seems to think that steering a bike is a natural instinct and when questioned seems to have absolutely no idea how he does it. He says "You just choose a line and follow it." He also said that counter-steering is something you have to be taught on a race track.

My instructor refused to explain counter-steering in any detail claiming that it was too confusing.

So, when dotti posted a link to a website that explained counter steering I took notice. In fact the advice from most sources appears to be that you literally turn the handlebars in the opposite direction to the one you want to go in. This is obviously complete b****cks and probably why my instructor didn't want to talk about it. Anyway, after reading countless articles and a few papers on gyroscopic precession, I finally figured it out.

Now that I actually know how to steer, I found myself going round corners twice as fast with 10x the confidence. I wish someone (my instructor?) had bothered to tell me how to do this from the start.

Ride was so good I came home and dropped the bike putting it onto the stand (don't ask). No damage this time though

Paul

[G]

[nc30 chick]

[Gazdaman]

Counter steering is natural.

Just ride along in a straight line, next time you're cruising through a 30, just push the right bar gently and the bike will fairly violently lean to the right.

It's nothing complicated, and you do it without thinking, but once you've seen it work whilst going along a road you wonder why the hell it works.

Gaz

[meyrick]

Ooooookay. My mistake, obviously learning here....

You mean you literally turn the handlebars in the opposite direction to the turn, within the same 2D plane of movement??? Obviously this is not what I am doing, nor would I agree that I am doing it 'automatically.' Oh balls! I'm now officially confused all over again!!! Back to the text book...

Paul

Edit: Oh, the irony!

[instigator]

No, lol, just apply a little bit of force to the right hand side of your bars and you'lll go left. I guess you dont physically turn the bars when you're going along at 50mph Just a slight even push and you'll feel it turn

[G]

The bars do only turn very slightly.

This couter-turning causes the bike to lean over in the opposite direction, this cause you to enter the turn quicker. This is the only way to turn a bike at speed, so you will be doing this.

If you turn them a signficant amount the bike will lean over very quickly.

Try going along in a straight line on an empty road at around 50mph. Aplly pressure to the bars as if to turn the right. You will find the bike leans to the left, to stay going straight you will have to lean your body weight the other way.

[Gazdaman]

[instigator]

You guess right

My bad

[meyrick]

[meyrick]

Ok, I think I have it sorted in my head now. If I am trying to force one side of the bars up and the other down and my arms are not perpendicular to the ends of the bars in that plane of movement I will inevitably apply some turning force to the bars in the opposite direction to the direction of travel...et voila! Counter steering!

...I think...I hope.

Paul

[G]

Counter steering only works above a certain speed.

It works because of the gyroscopic effects of the wheel... turn it one way and the wheel will lean the opposite way.

Below this certain speed this does not have a big enough effect, so you steer 'normally'.

As I said, if possible, just find an empty road and have a play.
Note that intentionally countersteering only really needs to be done if you need to turn faster. A useful thing to know about, but the knowledge is not required to ride a bike .



To show quite how instinctive it is; you do do it on a push bike to a certain extent. I rode a friends push trike. Ended up going in circles and almost hit several parked cars.
Because you steer 'normally', rather than counter steering, the natural reaction to correct a slight steering error is to turn that way more, to counter steer away. On the trike this made it worse, so your brain naturally makes you do it more. Hilarious to watch .

[ian_s]

Yeah, I read that article as well. After reading it several times and lots of arm movements I concluded that you do it naturally to keep balance.

[Gazdaman]

Meyrick the bars only will turn in one plane, unless something is seriously wrong with your bike.

Just coast along a straight road at about 40mph, loosen your grip on both bars, and gently push one side of your bars. The bike will lean over as if it's going to turn the other way.

Go and try it, those diagrams are helping no-one.

Gaz

[meyrick]

Lol They are awful aren't they. There, I got rid of them. I really can't explain effectively what I was doing today, diagrams or no, so I won't bother.

Thanks everyone for your input, I will go out on the bike and try a few things before I make any more embarrassing faux pas.

Paul.

[AcIdBuRnZ]

Sorry, just reminds me of when I first though I was going to see what this counter steering was all about.

I was amazed at just how quickly the bike would fall into the corner with a quick push on the bars. I then figured how Rossi and Co. are able to ride like that.

It's not complicated, just basic physics. But a bit of a head fuck at first..... so I turn right to steer left? WTF?

Now it's natural, but because I know how it work, you learn to use it more effectively. Makes riding easier I think, as you don't need to hang off the bike like a monkey on every corner!!! (G is the exception here )
____________________
Past: Honda NSR125R >> Kawasaki ER-5a2 >> Kawasaki ZZR-600e1 >> Suzuki GSXR-750Y >> Honda VTR 1000 Firestorm
"Chickity China the Chinese Chicken..."

[G]

[meyrick]

[DM]

I read up on this a long time ago but never actually used it to throw bikes around until about two years ago when I started riding the RX. When I was riding an RT125 for awhile I HAD to use it due to the extra weight over the 2-strokes I was used to. It's also the only way to judge how easily a bike can change direction. Try riding a scooter through an S-curve and yucking the handlebars from one corner into the other and it'll go up and over onto the other side in a shot. That's one reason I used to have so much fun riding my friend's Runner. I could change direction in a split second and arrive at whatever lean angle I wanted to with high precision.

[fuzz]

Did you never do that experiment at school or a science museum with the bicycle wheel. You hold it at arms length, arms parallel to the floor, by the axle and spin it. If you turn the axle to the left, the wheel leans to the right and your right arm ends up below your left. It's exactly the same principle.

Just remember to push in the direction you want to travel off throttle, and when you reach the desired lean angle to make the corner, open the throttle slightly to hold you at that angle.
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https://www.bikepics.com/members/fuzzbcf/
Bikes: '99 NSR125R, '00 SV650S, K1 GSX-R600, '97 CB500, K3 SV1000S, '16 VFR800

[meyrick]

Nope, never did do that experiment. In fact I'm pretty sure I never did any work on gyroscopic forces, even after a year of Physics at University...must have had a hangover that day

Just read a counter-steering FAQ on the survival skills website. They reckon it actually doesn't have much to do with gyroscopic forces at all, more inertia and camber thrust...whatever that is. Anyway, can't be arsed with the physics anymore. Just going to find a wide empty road, give the bars a poke to the right and see what happens (Famous last words?).

[fuzz]

[MADDOG]

[u]Counter steering for dummies[/u]

1) Hold your handle bars.
2) Set off
3) Get some speed up
4) Approch the corner
5) Push the rights side of the bars to lean left an turn left

or

5.a) Push the left side to leand right and turn right


simple effective and to the point who care how it works it just does... nuff sed

thats exactley how my CBT instructor taught me
____________________
Aprilia RS125 Harada. has gone now have a SV650s K5
Are you meant to scrape knee slides or rip them clean off?

[Knisis]

After reading about counter-steering and just general riding I came up with this easy to understand principle.

To turn left - You lean to the left - Which puts weight on your left hand bar - Which turns the wheel slightly right = Counter Steer

[AcIdBuRnZ]

By jove he's got it
____________________
Past: Honda NSR125R >> Kawasaki ER-5a2 >> Kawasaki ZZR-600e1 >> Suzuki GSXR-750Y >> Honda VTR 1000 Firestorm
"Chickity China the Chinese Chicken..."