So which is more dangerous. Learner or BAB?

[Robby]

So. We haven't had this debate properly for a little while, and the demographic of the forum has had a fair shift in the last 18 months, since we got the influx from bikersweb.

Last time as I remember the BABs were blamed largely in this argument, but the forum had a huge large percentage of learners and young riders, and no separate forum for them.

So. I think the learners are more of a problem now. I've just had a break from riding for a year, hardly a big break but enough to make me rusty. I happily hopped onto an SV650 after my break and rode off. I'm still rather slow on corners, and pulling away from T junctions my low speed control can be a bit wobbly, but above all I feel safe and controlled. I could hop on a big bore sportsbike tomorrow and ride it very slowly everywhere, shitting my pants at every opportunity.

I'm certainly not seeing the argument of BABs doing their DAS, buying big bore sportsbikes, and riding them fast into solid objects. Well not many of them. I am seeing the the frustration of the young riders seeing BABs buy brand new midrange 600s/650s and riding them slowly and occasionally. But thats their choice.

A bit rambling I know. Your views?

[8316]

IMO, learners learn & BAB's think they know it all and dont need to learn cos they got the gear and the machine.
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[KevTM]

but they've also got past experience.. i don't think BAB's just buy a big bike and go round the twisties as fast as they can straight away, and in any case it'll all come bacl to them pretty quickly anyway.

Learners don't have as much experience, have little bikes that are twitchy and many don't have enough road sense nevermind experience on a bike.. hence why i think learners are more likely to cause danger on the road.

Learners are more dangerous IMO.

[mchaggis]

[jon88]

i dont know realy, im a learner and i would say in some situations im quite dangerous, just silly little things though, they say you learn from your mistakes but when on the road mistakes can be very costly, just look out and expexct the unexpected I suppose, some born again bikers arnt as stupid maybe even calmer and not trying to rip the bike round every corner that comes up,
my thaughts anyway
Jon

[ghostgirl]

I reckon both!

Learners are still learning, they take onboard the fact that the modern day riding needs brainwork! However,they make adjustments to fulfill thier new riding ambitions.

I just read this post somewhere >>> "middle-aged men are rediscovering their youthful enthusiasm for motorbikes" I reckon most of this category would be BAB's <<< stubborn,set in thier ways,not used to modern day biking,lack of enthusiasm to learn,and yes thinking they know it all.

But on the otherhand maybe they dont lack the experience of learners? Either could be a danger? Thats my opinion though
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[Mr.Everready]

Remember learners arn't just 17 year olds on 125's.
I never done my test until i was 32.
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[ghostgirl]

Absolutely!
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[Bendy]

I think you have to look at what you mean by 'learner'...

A true learner, regardless of age, is someone who has no previous road experience at all. Then you get your learners who are new to bikes, but may have road sense gained from time (maybe years) spent in cars.

I'd say that the real learners are the highest risk (to themselves) cos they have a lot to take in at once and inevitably make some silly mistakes as part of the learning process. Didn't we all?

Also, consider that a depressing percentage of our fellow road users seem to treat an L plate as a target, making life even harder for our wobbly, CBT-wielding hero. You won't find that many cagers picking on BornAgain boy cos he looks suitably imposing.

Young learners are gonna get the shitty end of the risk stick purely because most folk at the age of 17 don't have that much concept of their own mortality, or the worry in the back of their mind that if they come off and hurt themselves they're not going to be able to go to work, pay the rent, yadda yadda. A generalisation, I know, but I'd say it applies to a fair percentage. Being young and stupid and thinking you're immortal is all part of life, but it does rack up the chances of you wiping yourself out.

However, I'd save a special place for a certain breed of BornAgain. You know, the overly cocky one who's been a success at everything Tony, grr I'm a tiger in the workplace Tony, yah driving a Mercedes Tony, got myself a bike Tony, great fun... damn, crashed my R1 into a hedge Tony.

[feef]

where's the "inexperienced, just passed and bought an R1" option?

a
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[ghostgirl]

I agree. I only passed my test a year and 1 month ago

But I still consider myself a learner. I think we are constantly learning everyday...........Its all part and parcel.
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[Dom]

[New York Doll]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Real 17 year old learner is likely to have next to no awareness of what is going on around them. Many rapidly get to the point where they are cocky and overconfident without actually getting that good at knowing what is going on around them, and with little sense of their own mortality.

BABs probably have far more idea of what they are doing, and what is likely to cause them a problem (even just from 20 years experience in a car). However they can still be cocky and overconfident, and with enough power to get themselves into trouble far more quickly. More likely to have some concept of their own mortality.

Both can be pretty lethal. Both groups can be tempted into doing really stupid things by peer pressure.

Riding as part of a group (where they are likely to try and do what they see others doing) I would suspect that they are both pretty close to being as bad as each other. Riding alone then I would say the learners are far more likely to land up as a red stain on the tarmac.

All the best

Keith
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[zx636]

There are good and bad BAB's just as there are good and bad L's.

Question is should anyone be allowed on a powerfull bike without the correct training.
I consider myself a BAB after taking biking back up at the tender age of 50. Prior to that I had not ridden for over 20 years. Hell, a 1 day CBT and a 3 day DAS and I could ride anything. Even I was surprised how easy it is. Would I have given me my full license ....NOPE. Me being honest here.
Like many BAB's I went from a 125 to do my CBT to a 600 sports days after my DAS.
Age does make it easier because of low premiums and normally a good income.

I think what is fair for the young learners is fair for the BAB's. restricted for 2 years.
Age has nothing to do with it, anyone who sais that at a certain age you become more sensible is talking bollocks. Giving an 18yr a 150mph bike is the same as giving it to a 50 yr old. Its the riding experience which counts not the age.

The playing field should be levelled and all riders given a decent bit of training with a decent restriction period. As an 'older' member I would also advocate refresher courses for those over a certain age.

[johnsilva]

depends what the BAB is riding, a learner will always be riding a little piddler, where as BABs can get blades etc.
If a BAB were riding the same as a learner, for sure BAB is more safer

John
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[feef]

and what about the BAB who aren't Born Again, but are learning too

doubly scary??

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[Kickstart]

[JonB]

Well there are both in the household here.

There is my Dad 48 year old biker who hadn't rode a bike for 24 years until last December and jumped onto a Hornet 600 straight away without any refresher training. The biggest biker he had rode previously was a 185cc back in the 70's. So, he is still alive, but only just. We went out on a ride out with south west bikers a couple of weeks ago and he admitted he tends to get dragged with the riders in front and one time nearly went into a bank. I get worried about him because even though he has been on the road since he was 17, I think he forgets how powerful today's machines really are. Whenever I go pillion with him his riding is way below test standard, I see rarely any lifesavers from him and he constantly leaves his indicators on, perhaps he is just reliant on the automatic switching off of indicators in the car? I think he is a good rider though, seems to stick to every speed limit. He tells me he is a much more wiser rider these days and life is much more important to him and he has bigger responsibilities these days.

I however, am still a 17 year old, just passed my test after riding a 50cc moped and jumped onto a 600cc after only 3 days of riding a 125. I feel I am safe enough. My Dad says I am a good rider and I seem to have good road sense, but he and my Mum constantly worry about me whenever I am out. I have to ring them to keep them assured I am safe. I'm as dangerous as anybody else on the road.

In conclusion I think both are as bad as each other. In some ways the BAB's can get too cocky for their own liking and believe because they used to ride a 250BSA back in the day that they can handle one of today's machines, this is not the case. Learners on the other hand tend to be young and not have many responsibilities. I don't. I'm not really bothered if I die on my bike. Of course I don;t want to leave my Mum, Dad and Sister, but meh get on with it. I'm sure as I grow older, get married and have kids possibility perhaps I will get more sensible in my own ways. I think this argument has been really drawn out and I don't think it will ever come to a close. Let people ride their bikes. You get people who ride their bikes every day who die. Let them do what they want.

Peace out Jon.
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[Mik_RX125]

Just thought I'd have my say so...

I'm a learner, but have been riding for over 18 months now, since I turned 16. In that time I have pulled out on 1 van, which was in my first month, and hit the dirt once, where I ended up in a field. I've never been caught speeding, and have never tried to do wheelies, burnouts etc.

So I would consider myself a good rider, but in no way as experienced as many other bikers. So in the end it doesn't matter what bike you ride or what type of biker you are, it all depends on your attitude to the way you ride your bike.

Mik
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[Reevo8]

It is down to individuals, not groups of people. I feel much safer on my big bike than I ever did on the scooter and 125cc. Just seems to have the power to overtake, the brakes to slow ya down!

Learners on 50's 125's are often more dangerous, but through no fault of there own, more to the lack of power.

Born agains, are normally people who couldnt afford to pay for a bike and car, and finally have the funds to do so. Riding a bike is something that you never forget.

I would say that these born agains and learners, are probably much better riders than most of us! Because they spend time riding, not typing on here!
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[dibbster]

Would have to say BAB as certainly the fatal accidents that I have heard of near me recently have involved the older age range.
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[Wave2k]

considering this forum is 80 Lerners anyway so its pretty bias
i would say lerners
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[Jrod]

Hmmm I never think about getting hurt or dieing, just worried about the damage it would cause to bike.

[KevTM]

when BAB's make a mistake it's usually higher speed therefore a higher % of serious injury, or death..

Learners on low power bikes will make stupid mistakes and more likely to cause damage themselves and cars at lower speed.

We're all at risk but as far as this thread has gone it's the mentality of the biker, young, old, experienced or not.