Getting faster on track - G's thoughts / RFC

[G]

Warning: Long thread, basically I'm just saying 'go faster', so feel free to ignore the rest .

I am writing this from the position of someone that's still very much learning in a big way, rather than an 'expert' racer; as can be seen, just because you've joined a bike racing club doesn't mean you are a fast rider.
So far my racing career has been a bit disappointing; maybe due to mechanical problems, but these have lead to 'me' problems.

Warning!
I may not be right, and definitely am not writing this from a position of authority.
So do be careful out there.
Infact, I'm probably more writing this for myself, rather than for others!

I definitely wouldn't be using any of the tactics mentioned on the road.


This is aimed to deal with the very basics; when people on similar machinery are going significantly quicker than you.




How do you get faster when riding at trackdays?

For me it initially just came naturally; I turned the throttle more and more until the rear wheel started sliding. At which point I turned the throttle slightly less at that point and found other places to turn the throttle more .



However I have recently found myself with a bit of a 'mental block'.

I think this initially started at Silverstone at the beginning of the year. A leaky gasket left me a bit nervous as my left boot was covered with oil.

I never quite 'got into it', despite the fact I started racing this year .


The basics of a corner are going to be braking, corner speed and getting on the power at the exit. Some corners can be quite a lot more complex or 'technical' than this, but let's focus on the basics.

We'll start with corner speed, as this is usually pretty important to getting around them faster ;
So, how do you go round a corner faster? - Seems obvious, but it's not always quite that easy, especially when you're focus is on the rapidly approaching corner infront rather than logical thought.

I'm presuming you're aware of the 'proper' weight distribution here using the throttle; around a corner you should be gently accelerating; so that there is about a 60/40 weight distribution to the back wheel; this accounts for the fact that it has a bigger contact patch.

The first rather obvious and most important thing to do is to go into the corner faster. So brake less and a bit later. Alternatively, if you're not comfortable with this, brake at the same point, but 'coast' for a little bit up until your turn in point; ideally with that slight acceleration. This should mean your bike is a bit more settled as well, possibly giving more confidence.
(Note that this may slightly reduce turn in speed, but probably not noticeable if you feel you need to coast for a bit).
So, you're now going around that corner slightly faster. How fast /can/ you go?
A good, though not absolute indication is people on similar bikes. Is someone with about the same set up as you shooting past you there? If so, the probability is that you too can.
However remember there are many factors here; they may be on super-sticky tyres, or may just be about to crash.

Working out exactly how fast you can go is something I haven't quite 'sorted' yet, however the usual indication you can't go any faster is the rear sliding slightly.
Providing you use the old rule of 'go faster slowly' (so only get faster in small stages at a time) you should be fine.
The rear sliding can be slightly scary, but providing you keep the throttle open and steady, if you have got progressively faster then you should be fine.
For me this has usually been the limit that I can push corner speed, at which point I look at other things to improve.

Once I have found the bike loses traction at a certain speed, I will usually reduce the speed very slightly on the next pass and try and keep that speed for that corner.

Obviously losing traction from the front wheel is usually a tad more problematic and best avoided. I think I tend to try and keep my weight a bit further forward while hanging off, in the hope of giving the front end a bit more grip. Whether this is the correct tactic or not is another matter.


If you find you are not very leant over you may well be able to accelerate quite a bit around corners, to get your corner speed up. However remember that you should be able to go faster with a constant slight acceleration around a corner rather than trying to speed up midcorner; the bike will also feel more stable / planted.

For the best possible speed your limits should be set at the bike losing traction. Not getting to this point? Then ask yourself 'why not?'
Usually it's because you are imposing limits on yourself, rather than you utilising the bike's limits.
If you're getting enough lean to get parts of the bike down, then the obvious thing is to adjust something so they don't. Whether this be the position of parts of your bike or even your body position on the bike.

Obviously some corners are more complex and can't be taken at the highest possible speed thanks to the next corner, or maybe even wanting to get on the power earlier, depending on the bike, conditions, etc.


How do you know how fast you're going around a corner then? - So that you can go the same speed next time.
I generally just 'feel' presumably my brain interprets the visual stimuli and compares it to last time: However a knee slider is a good help as well.
I try and remember about the angle I held my knee last time; if it touched down and I want to go faster I will lift it up slightly and will try and go faster until it touches down again.
If I've got to the point that the tyre starts to slide I will try and keep my knee so that it will touch down if it gets to the angle it would start to slide; then I know when I'm right on the limit.
Keeping your knee hovering saves on slider wear as well; an extra £20 for a new slider adds to the cost of a track day!
If I'm not feeling so confident I will sometimes keep my slider down so that I can feel the angle my leg is sticking out to the track; useful if the track is cambered also.
Other things like engine noise can also give you clues. Generally it's probably best not to look down at the tacho or even speedo, if it's visible, while mid corner.

Of course here we're presuming you're also taking a good line around the corner. Other things to remember are that if you are taking the corner faster on the same line you will need to turn in faster and the obvious hitting the apex and using the full width of the track on the entrance and exit. You may be going bloody fast, but if you're on completely the wrong line it may not help so much. (But going bloody fast on the wrong line is faster than going slowly on the right line most of the time, in my opinion.)




So, you're now going around the corner faster, but there's people shooting up the inside while you're braking, then holding you up in the corner.

Are you sure you are braking as hard as possible?
This is one of those justifications for playing about with stoppies on an industrial estate .
To brake as hard as possible the rear wheel should be just about to lift off the tarmac, if it's not then you can always brake harder. If you can consistently do stoppies then you probably have the skill to do the same thing, abeit keeping it just a bit lower, before it actually lifts.

Definitely worth doing if you haven't played around with that sort of thing!

On track you can use similar tactics to getting around the corner faster; each time you come up to the point you're about to brake, pull the lever a little harder. Eventually you should get to the point the rear starts to lift.
If you are 'playing' with this it's probably best to do it without moving your actual braking point back too far; if you actually do a stoppy you will increase your braking distance! Also 'survival reactions' come into play meaning that you don't want to let go off the front brake mid stoppy, despite the fact it may actually make you brake quicker when you reapply it.
As with everything else; you do need to make sure you do it progressively; don't suddenly grab a massive handful of front brake the first time you try.

Now that you're stopping quicker, you need to move the point you're stopping back.
Again, move it back slowly, try braking a little bit later each time. This should mean that you get to the point that you are turning in just after you finish the main braking.
Even to the point that you trail the front brake going into the corner to lose that last couple of mph while you're still not totally leant over.

The 'ideal' way to brake is hard initially, trailing off slightly as you come up to the corner; this leaves the bike most settled for a quick turn in and gives you more flexibility to hang off before the corner.

You may find you 'out brake' yourself; you leave the braking too late and end up deciding you can't make the corner. This usually means braking past the turning in point then turning in late. At the worst case carrying on over the run off.
Providing you have moved your braking point back small increments at a time this shouldn't be a problem.

If you do out brake yourself, you know you've reached the limits, so move your braking point back a little bit and move on to other things to improve .

As mentioned before it's best not to combine moving this back and braking harder at the same time as that can lead to both going wrong at the same time; perfect one with some margin for error on the other before you fine tune both.

Some track sections provide easy braking markers, while others don't. If there's nothing at all, then you should still be able to get an idea of how far you've got left just from what the track looks like at that point; ie how 'small' the corner looks, where a vanishing point is etc.

It can be worth noting down these points so that you know for future reference; or even to remind you in the afternoon sessions when you're focused on that straight line hero that keeps getting past on the straights .



It should be noted that it can be all too easy to start braking really hard and end up actually going slower into the corner because your braking marker is still the same; so remember that you will need to move the points around as you get faster. In a similar manner if you start to take the corner a bit faster, when you're confident you want to move the braking maker towards the corner a little bit and keep the braking constant, rather than just 'coasting' or even braking hard then realising you want to go faster and accelerating after to get back up to the speed you want to be at.





Now you're getting into and around the corner decently, you need to match that up with getting out of it fast as well.

Again we're talking about pushing the limits.
There generally seems to be a point in the corner that you can snap the throttle fully open without the rear sliding. On some bikes this can be while almost fully leant over on slow corners, while on others this may be when almost out of the corner.

As you sit the bike upright you should be able to wind the power on as your lean angle decreases, until you're either at wide open throttle or you can just snap the throttle open to it.

How quickly you do this should be limited by the amount of available traction.

Until you know your bike better than I know mine the only real way to find out the limits of traction is to push them.

Once again we are talking progressively; so get on the power a little bit earlier each time. Don't start grabbing a big handful and seeing what happens, until you know what the bike's going to do stay smooth and wind the power on slowly to start with.
Each time around you should be able to start turning the throttle that little bit earlier.

Hopefully you should just get a little slide, if you're taken the process progressively.
At this point you can set a benchmark for the point you get onto the power and try and stick to it (I try and get on the power just /after/ the point that it will slide).

A lot of variables can also effect this; for instance if you start to take the turn faster, on a bike which has an angled torque curve; ie which makes more torque at higher rpm (like a 2 stroke or 4 stroke parallel 4 rather than a twin): then you will find that you are at a higher rpm at the same point. As the engine is now kicking out more torque, turning the throttle at the same point will mean more of a kick and more likelihood of losing traction.
Obviously increased speed with the same torque will still mean tyres under more load.

I've been quite surprised how much some tyres can be abused; with slicks at Snetterton I was able to get full power in second gear from just after the apex coming out of the Esses. My knee was still pretty much on the tarmac at this point and the bike would probably wheelie if it was upright!
With decent road-race tyres or even some of the good road tyres you can still give them some serious abuse and just end up with a slightly frayed look at the end.

The way you get on the power can depend a lot on personal preference, but your limit is going to be traction, whatever. The trick as always is to be just the right side of that line, even if you get to the point you're backing it in and power sliding out, you're still on a line, just one a lot closer to crashing and probably on a lot finer .

Once you've got to the point of wide open throttle make sure this continues until the next braking point; so continue until the redline, clutchless shift up and repeat, only letting the throttle off 'wide open' when you shift up.
There's no point coming out of the corner fast then having the throttle halfway open, so once it's 'safe' to do so; right hand turned as far around as it will go. This is a drag race!
(Of course this is presuming your front wheel is going to stay on the ground!)



Hopefully I you should now be pushing the limits of the bike you're riding.
Still plenty more to learn, but if you can properly push the limits of your bike setup it will be a good start .




A few other things to consider:
Throttle hand position
I sometime find I'm not going fast enough because I'm not turning the throttle enough!
Why? Because I put my hand on the throttle then turn it down. This means that at full throttle my hand is actually pointing down in a slightly painful position.
I try to put my hand on top of the throttle pointing up with the throttle off, so it's 'natural' position with the throttle fully open will be horizontal.

Relaxed?
If you're stiff you won't ride so well and will make the bike handle worse.
-> Getting sore wrists and hands when braking; try gripping the tank with your thighs more.
This takes the pressure of your wrists and gives you better control.
To make yourself do this make sure you are in a proper racing crouch with your arms horizontal, this should to some degree force you to stop yourself sliding forward with your legs. Will also give you better turning leverage.
-> Death grip on bars in corners. Holding the bars really tight constricts the bike's movement and can cause it to handle oddly over bumps etc.
To prove to yourself your arms are relaxed while riding I have heard the following technique suggested; seems to work for me: Flap your elbows (chicken impersonations) midcorner, while holding the bars. If you can waggle your arms freely you should have a fairly relaxed position. If your arms won't move, loosen up a bit .

Turn in Faster
Definitely one for me; as mentioned above, if you want to take a corner faster on exactly the same line you will have to turn in faster. This means a conscious effort to countersteer the bike into the corner. Initially this isn't a major issue as you will probably make much bigger gains by just going faster on a 'wrong' line; still probably true for me as well!




On everything mentioned here, do remember that limits of the bike and you can be massively effected by many variables, so don't expect that just because you were doing 50second laps at brands on a hot sunny on summer's day with brand new slicks you'll be able to do the same on a cold winter's day on used supercorsa's .


Obviously this is by no means comprehensive. Masses I haven't gone near, like bike setup, other riders, riding style, etc, etc.

I would welcome any comments, additions, anyone telling me I'm talking a load of bull or whatever.

As I mentioned was probably more making a guide to remind myself to go faster and try and make use of the new tyres I've been buying, rather than just cruising around stuck at some self imposed limits, feeling like I'm going fast when I'm actually far inside the bikes limits.

If you're looking for lots more decent advice that goes further than 'go faster' I'd suggest having a look at Keith Code's 'A Twist of the Wrist II'.

[craigT19]

got no work to be getting on with g


top thread
____________________
Bikes owned :- 2001 nsr125, 1999 zx6r, 2006 yzf-r1, 2009 xmax 250, 2012 yzf-r1, 2015 MT-07
Current bike : - 2016 MT-10
BCF member pops. sadly missed 1945-2003

[zx636]

G.

Great write up there. Loads of us would love to have a go at racing but very few do.

your throttle problem, the incorrect positioning you feel, are you using the standard throttle assembly??

[Luke_Retrofly]

Hi
Thanks G for takeing the time and effort to do this thread, though its prolly helping you just as much us . why couldnt you post it b4 cadders .

Im pertty pissed off at my time @ cadders, though i was doing close to 2 min laps, i wasnt so, but i was wasnt pushing it anymore, and didnt really improve on times during the day , 2:06 in 2nd session (fastest 2:04) was going fastish but was deffon in a comfort zone and not shitting myself.

Spose thats another way you can tell if your going fast, though are the really fast guys always scared, though oli did mention something about crapping himself the whole time .

I think one of the best way to fast is to sort out what gear to be in and where, untill you've got that sorted times are usually quite incostistant.

My main problem is the rear sliding/chattering going into corners, really need to learn to blip the throttle if i want to do racing, though i think my rear is pretty fucked, bobbles the size of big ball bearings

must push myself to go faster instead of sitting in a comfort zone, but like anyone i dont wanna cash . bit of dilema, slow = safe(er).

desperatly want to do another track day soon and push myself faster and stop kidding myself that im fast enough to race as im riding at the mo.

Sorry for hi-jack

Luke (most of that may be no use to anyone but its good to get your thoughts down, lets you think about them more )
____________________
Flounced - Long overdue
Fuck you bitch I'm in the top 10 list I can do the what the fuck I want!

[G]

[zx636]

G.

I did the R1 throttle conversion on my old 2000 r6. Its simple and cheap if you get the parts from ebay. It took a while to get used to but oddly enough cured the problem I had of feeling my hand was always in the wrong position for smooth throttle control.
well worth considering as a cheapo fix that wont cost a fortune if you decide it doesnt help.
I got the "how to" from R6 messagenet but I presume you are more than capable of the conversion.

The other great trick was to shorten and bend the brake leaver, seemed to make getting a decent two finger grip on the leaver easier, could just be imagination of course but if it works and gives confidence then half the battles won. I know CRG do shortened and adjustable leavers and I have seen then on ebay for an R6 for £45.

[G]

I thought my last r6 had an r1 throttle grip and I still have it (not sure though). Have seen it done before (dusty did it to his r6) so not a problem for me to do it.

Even then it still had more turn than my zx9 one does!

To be honest it's not a big issue for me if I do position my hand correctly; it's just remembering to do so .

I don't really have a problem with reach for the brake lever, so that’s not an issue; infact I often have the brake lever set on one of the further out settings (never mind that)

[Dusty]

[swaffs]

Excellent post , very interesting. I think I can take something from every paragraph.
Something I'm already working on is the throttle grip, I do find myself running out of of twist in my wrist, and having to really push to get that extra turn, but by the time I have realised, I'm already way behind everyone.

Although a little controlled aggression and alot of confidence will also help me loads.

I think getting my shock done this weekend will help with confidence.

Swaffs.
____________________
Swaffs Photography |
BCF vinyl stickers
"Look not back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around you in awareness."

[Bendy]

Excellent thread.

Random additional musings from someone who's not fast, but has got faster since starting this whole track thingy...

- If there's someone there on the day who's opinion you trust, listen to their advice. It's easy to delude yourself that you're going quickly and it can take a more impartial observer to pick up on where you can make improvements. For example, three individual people offered advice to me at Cadwell, I took it on board and went quicker. There have been times previously where I've tried to justify why I'm doing it wrong... you have to get over your hatred of criticism if you're going to learn.

- Eat and drink. It's incredibly important, even if you don't feel hungry or thirsty you need to get something into you before you go out and work extremely hard. I make a conscious effort to eat and drink now and while it wont make you faster by itself, it helps keep you alert and stops you getting worn out too early in the day. When you're on track and you hit that wall of tiredness, you start making stupid mistakes.

- Mood. Now, this may just be me or it may not, but my mood has got a lot to do with how quickly I can go. All too often I'm happy to comparatively pootle around, nicely within my limits, not scaring myself, not even breaking a sweat. Other times, I get the red mist and actually apply myself 100% to what I'm doing, push myself much harder and come in totally knackered but usually really satisfied. Now, what I need to do is work out how to get into that 'go for it' mood on demand, and to be honest, I've no idea how to. Having folk I know on track with me helps cos there's bragging rights to be won by being quicker, but I can't rely on that to always be the case... going to have a think about this one before the next trackday.

Is this just a me thing, or do other folk find the same?

- Headspace. In the same vein as the mood thing, I reckon not being hassled by other stuff is good. A few weeks ago at Cadders when my bike wasn't working I was stressing about in the paddock, then stressing over using Luke's bike and whether I could ride it properly or not ( ) then stressing about mine packing up on circuit when we got it running... I was shit. I'll also take a punt here and say that the races where G's bike has been working okay and everything's sorted out in good time before he goes out are the ones where he's done better than the ones when there's last minute faffing. So I'd venture that part of going quicker is having a bit of time to think about what you should be doing and also the reassurance that everything on your bike is just so.


Just a few thoughts to add to the mix. Now if I could get all the actual riding shit sorted out...