Ignition on, but no power!?

[Nath]

Hi, slight problem with my bike in that with the ignition on there is no power to anything. Neutral light doesn't come on, none of the lights work, starter etc. Both the ignition fuse, and the main fuse are both fine I've not done any further investigation yet, but am after any advice on what may be wrong and where to look etc.

I'd been for a ride and was thrashing it a bit on the way back home. Once home I couldn't get in the house as the door was locked and the key left in, and knocking didn't seem to rouse my dad. I thought it a good idea to go and start the bike back up and redline it to get his attention... Turned the ignition on and neutral/oil lights came on as normal, as soon as I touched the starter switch there was a small click/pop sound and the lights went out with no sound at all from the starter. Maybe I was imagining it but the quiet click sound seemed to come from the back of the bike.

Can't think of anything else that needs mentioning... Nothing electrical works, haven't checked the other fuses but none of them are for anything that should effect all electrics. It's a Bros400. Am I gonna have to have some fun with the multimeter tomorrow?
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[mr.z]

There will be a main fuse.. this will pretty much stop anything doing anything...

sometimes the main fuse is elsewhere on the bike than the main fuse box, near the battery is a good place to look...

i'd be supprised if its anything else tbh..
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>RidingSkills<->Tech Tips<->MyBikes<

[Kickstart]

Hi

I would guess the main fuse, which (given it is a Honda) is probably under a cover on the starter relay.

All the best

Keith
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[Nath]

Hi, this was my immediate thought, and so the 2nd thing I checked(the first being the ignition fuse). Yes it is at the back of the bike on its own next to the battery.

Unfortunately the fuse wasn't blown Checked it with the multimeter, and made sure I put it back firmly afterwards which also made no difference.
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[stinkwheel]

There is sometimes a different fuse elsewhere (ie not in the fusebox). Not familiar with your bike but there is sometimes one attached to the starter solenoid (withch is also usually at the back of the bike).

Follow the huge fat wire from the battery positive to find the solenoid and see if there is a fuse there.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Nath]

It's deffinately the main fuse i've checked... It's right next to the battery with a short red cable going into it from the positive terminal of the battery. It's 30amp fuse, compared to the 10 and 15amp fuses that are situated near the headlight for all the other electrics.

If no one has any non-fuse-related suggestions my first course of action tomorrow will be to follow the wires going into/out of the ignition-key barrel and finding if power is getting into it, and possibly even out.
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[Kickstart]

Hi

Those starter relays on Hondas also control most of the rest of the electrics and are not known for lasting for ever. I would starting poking there with the multimeter first.

All the best

Keith
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[Nath]

Cheers for the tip Keith

Poked around a bit today, but I'm not really sure what i've found Life was made alot easier by a complete wiring diagram available online.

Besides the main connections to the battery and starter motor, there are four connections in/out of the starter relay via a connector plug. I've worked out what all of them are with the aid of the diagram. One is going to the regulator/rectifier, and the starter relay is putting out 12v to there. Another goes to the ignition barrel(?) and this is also getting 12v.

There is another for the neutral/clutch switch which. I tested this circuit for continuity and when I pulled in the clutch the circuit with ground was closed. Couldn't get it to beep when not in neutral though I know the neutral switch should work as i've never been able to start it in gear, however even if the switch/circuit was faulty I don't think this should cut power to the rest of the electrics.

The final connection should be the negative connection of a circuit that is made when the ignition is on and the starter switch closed. ie to start the bike. I had continuity through the circuit, and I also checked for voltage. Just under 1v was coming through the connection when the starter button is engaged. I'm assuming this is as it should since it's been through plenty of wiring/electronics?

If anyone's still following, this leaves me clueless. Power is coming out of the starter relay where it should do. Does this mean the regulator is at fault, since all the electrics run from it? However, looking at the wiring diagram the oil and neutral lights take their power from the ignition barrel(?) which gets its power straight off the starter relay(and is doing so). Does this point at the ignition barrel(?) being at fault? There is continuity between the connection going to it from the starter relay and ground when the ignition is switched on(key turned).

Am I going to have to mess around with the ignition barrel(?) tomorrow to see if it the culprit?


Final note: Earlier on in the day when messing around, I put the connector coming off the starter relay back in place and a minute later noticed the oil and neutral lights had come on(had left ignition switched on). Turning the ignition on and off a few times it seemed like it was working fine. As soon as I pressed the starter button the same happened as did originally: A click from near the battery/starter relay and no power to anything on the bike I've not managed to get the ignition working again by poking things or leaving it switched on for a while.

It starting working of its own accord would suggest a loose connection, but why would trying to start the bike make it fail again? At this point my dad suggested the solenoid may be to blame(the solenoid is part of the starter relay I think?), but this wouldn't explain why power is coming out of the relay where it should to the ignition and regulator, but no electrics are working!?

Cheers to anyone bothering to read all that especially if they have any more advice to give me The only ideas I have at the moment are to delve further with the multimeter probably near the igniton barrel(?) and regulator, or just to get a new solenoid/starter-relay and see if it fixes the problem.
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[catgate]

Sounds to me like a bad battery connection (probably -ve), which is warming up, when a large current is asked for, and building up a resistance, which disappears as it cools.
But then I might be talking a lot of cobblers.
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"Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."

[Kickstart]

Hi

Does sound likely the starter solonoid is the problem. I would hope that you can swap it over with a local Honda owner to check. When you have pressed the button you have put a sudden load on it.

I would agree that it is well worth checking the battery connections, and also worth checking the battery itself (as it is not unknown for them to die suddenly, but not likely it would come back to life).

All the best

Keith
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[stinkwheel]

There is sometimes another relay before the starter relay inside the fusebox. Modern bikes are full of microrelays. Try switching the ignition on and giving the fusebox several sharp thumps with the heel of your fist in-case one is sticking. (spent four hours tracing a similar wiring fault earlier this year and thumping the fuse-box was the solution..sticky relay was the problem)
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Nath]

Cheers for the help all.

The battery connections seem fine. I've done all my multimeter probing with negative wire attached to the frame rather than the negative terminal of the battery. Power is deffinately coming out of the starter relay as well so I don't think there is a problem with the positive connection to the battery either.

The battery itself... It's putting out 12v and a what appeared a fair amount of current(not sure how to read off amps from the meter). *However*, with all connections in place and the ignition turned on I could only measure 1.5v accross the battery terminals. I don't fully understand electrics so I'm not sure if this means anything or not With the ignition off but everything still connected it goes back to 12v. This is with nothing electrical actually appearing to work bare in mind.

Testing the connection going from the starter relay to starter motor, there is no current coming out when the starter button is pressed.

Hitting the fusebox, starter relay, and ignition barrel didn't get anything working either.


I think then i'm going to try a new solenoid. My dad has a cb550 but the solenoid/starter-relay appears quite a bit different, so I don't think there's any chance of borrowing that. A new solenoid is £30 so I think i'll try and get one off a bike being broken(eBay maybe).

Cheers.
____________________
Hard livin', hard luck.

[stinkwheel]

Sounds like there is a short circuit somewhere if you are only getting 1.5 volts at the battery with the ignition on.

Any of the wires getting hot??
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Nath]

Cheers for the tip Stinky Unless this is a symptom of a dodgy solenoid I may well be getting somewhere.

From the wiring diagram I can see that the regulator/rectifier gets power directly from the starter relay, when the engine isn't running at least. Checking this connection as it goes into the regulator, i'm seeing 12v with the ignition off, with the ominous 1.5v with ignition switched on.

I also checked connections coming out of the ignition barrel going to the fuse box - This is seperate from the circuit supplying power from the regulator, and must be for the purposes of controling things rather than supplying them power. I'm getting 12v with the ignition switched on, as it should do.

Obvious this was pointing at something, so I checked the power going into the regulator again but with the connection between ignition and fuses unplugged(how I'd got into it with the multimeter). Now I was getting 12v with the ignition on or off. If the problem is a short circuit somewhere, then this isolates it to the connections between fuse box and the various electrical bits(lights etc) does it not?

Unfortunately most of the electrics on the bike are fused through it(of course) If this isn't all a symptom of a dodgy solenoid then solving the problem may be a case of lots of work with the multimeter rather than spending £££ on replacement components. Since i'm skint this has to be a good thing Just need to figure out how trying to start the bike causes the problem...
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[Nath]

Okay, am almost there. My dad came home and said take all the fuses out and put em back one by one to figure out what's causing the short.

It's the connection going up to the temperiture guage, tacho, and oil/neutral lights that's making it short. Unfortunately the bike wouldn't start with this fuse removed, but this maybe because the neutral light and neutral switch are connected, and the neutral switch is in the circuit to allow the bike to start...

The only other interesting thing is that putting in the fuse for the ignition caused the voltage to halve. My dad suggested that this is because it's drawing alot of current?

At least i've now got a small list of things to check
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[stinkwheel]

Keep searching. Looks like it is just a case of chasing stuff through.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Nath]

Okay, I think I've got somewhere, i'm just not quite sure exactly whereabouts "where" is

Disconnected the components that run off that connection one by one. When all I had left was the oil light, I now had just over 2v with the ignition on, and the light came on very feintly. Turning on anything electrical(lights, pressing horn etc) took the voltage down to zero and made the light go out. Removing that bulb did not make any difference.

I now took a guess that it might a battery problem. ie, the battery put out 12v, but as soon as something tried to draw current it couldn't cope. I connected up a 12v car battery to the bike battery with some jump leads and gave it a try. Voila! All electrics now started working normally, lights, indicators etc. I reconnected everything up and gave the starter a try.

Now here's the confusing bit. All I get is a clicking noise from either the solenoid or the starter(not sure which). It's a very rapid clicking as the starter button is held down, quite similar to the clicky sound from a ratchet, but much faster. I also noted that the rev counter operated with this clicking: A short press of the starter saw the needle blip up to about 3k before dropping. Holding down the starter button resulted in the needle shooting up to about 6k and staying then bouncing around. The engine was not in any way turning over, and no sounds of movement from the starter.

Anyone know what this means? All I can think of at the moment that this is a weird symptom of a dodgy solenoid, or that it's somehow to do with the spark/ignition system(that's what the rev counter runs off yes?) Don't see how it can be a short circuit since I unplugged everything from the dodgy circuit(everything off that running from that one fuse) yet still no working electrics or correct voltage. The fact that when this fuse is removed and ignition turned on I get 6v would also suggest that it isn't a short circuit.
____________________
Hard livin', hard luck.

[Kickstart]

Hi

Is sounding like a dodgy battery. Voltage is the potential difference and should not drop like a stone when a minor load is applied to the battery (you cannot usefully measure current over the battery).

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Nath]

Hi, would the inability to start the bike be caused by the car battery being a bit weak? I doubt it's at its prime and I think has sat unused for a few months.


I have a battery charger, the battery from my dad's bike, plus two other car batterys available albeit less accessible due to being in cars. Could try charging the bike battery over night, and if still no joy bumping it off one of the good car batterys
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Hard livin', hard luck.

[stinkwheel]

Sounds like classic symptoms of a dead battery now.

Question is, why did it die so suddenly? never occurred to me to mention that since you were just back from a blast (and therefore the batery SHOULD be fully charged. For some reason it wasn't charging, either a problem with the bike, or the battery is gubbed.

It should start if you jump it off the car. Once it is running, check the bike is generating a charging voltage. You want to be seeing 14 and a bit volts across the battery as you rev the engine up, lower than that and you have a problem.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Nath]

Thx Stinky, think that's the problem. I charged the battery overnight, but it didn't have enough power to get the starter motor going(did power the other electrics though).

Managed to bump start the bike, then checked the voltage over the battery. I was only getting 13v, and this was staying constant reguardless of the revs.

Next I tried jumping it again. I had the car battery on quick charge since my dad is out with his car and I can't figure out how to release the bonnet on his other car An hour or two on the charger gave it enough power to turn over the bike about 5 times, which I think may be due to it being knackered(could barely turn over the car it was from after a full night on charge, over a year ago). However, I found the bike wanted to stall when I removed the jump leads. After a couple of gos it managed to stay running with the leads removed so I once again checked to see if it was charging. Now I was noticing something odd: When I revved the bike the voltage was dropping, and the bike tried to stall. Did this a couple of times before the bike finally did stall.

Tried bumping the bike again as the car battery is back on the charger, but now the bike is struggling to take. It starts firing then struggles and stops. May be because i'm being to eager on the throttle to help it along, but this isn't from the bike being cold(throttle responce seemed fine when it was running).

Not sure whether this the battery, the charging circuit, or even worse the alternator I assume that revving the bike is causing the voltage to drop because the alternator isn't providing enough juice to keep the engine running so it's trying to pull it off the battery which is too weak, which would explain why the bike didn't like me removing the jump leads. Would also explain why the bike is now resisting me bump starting it as the battery has weakened again from playing around and now isn't helping it spark.


Even if the battery or charging circuit are dead, surely the alternator should be making enough juice to keep it sparking? I'll explore further with bumping and jumping the bike, but preferably less bump starts because i'm getting knackered and my neighbours are giving me funny looks
____________________
Hard livin', hard luck.

[Kickstart]

Hi

I have had a sealed battery die very suddenly one. 15 mile ride, stopped in a lay bye to see if a guy had broken down and when I went to restart the bike the battery was as dead as a Dodo. Not common but can happen.

I know with Bendys CBR the battery was dead and it would not run until some charge had got into the battery. Basically jump started it and then keeping the jump start pack on for a few minutes worked. Many vehicles will require a reasonable voltage to provide any spark at all.

When you have got it running the voltage is ~13V which suggests that it is charging. If the battery is as dead as it sounds then the actual figure is probably not that meaningful with regard to the condition of the charging system.

Think you just need a new battery.

All the best

Keith
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[mr.z]

Dead battery can do some strange things..

My mates zxr clocks went insane and all the lights stayed on... new battery and it worked 100% ever since

hope you have it all sorted now
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>RidingSkills<->Tech Tips<->MyBikes<

[Redd]

Just a thought, but my bike suffered from something very similar a few months back. Was running fine one day then the next day I turned the key and had nothing (no neutral light or electircs etc...or starter).

Checked the battery...12.? volts, checked the fuses...fine. With the ignition on I could bump start the bike but still had no electrics. Spent ages with a friend going through the wiring diagram and checking each circuit.

Eventually worked out that the ignition switch was dodgy and wasn't making a circuit for the electrics when we turned it on. Quick solution (I was going cold-turkey from not riding) was to bypass the ignition and install a secret switch to turn on the electrics. Since you still need the key to turn on the ignition to run the engine it wasn't completely insecure

I was all set to scour the breakers yard for another ignition switch when mysteriously it started working again about a week later. Mind you, it's a 10 year old 125 that's been neglected by previous owners so this kind of problem should be expected.
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2006 Kawasaki Z1000 - Black at the front, airbrushed fade to red at the back.
1998 Kawasaki KDX 200 Enduro project bike

[ZaphodBeeble]

A problem that I have had before was a knackered battery absorbing the charge from the alternator and not allowing the bike to run properly. Replaced the battery and all was fine.
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Current bike: VTR1000F Firestorm. Previous: Firestorm (written off) - XJ600 Divvy - NSR125 - DT125 and a load of offroaders.