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Top Gear talk of possible new bike noise laws

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Aikman666
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PostPosted: 01:16 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dont you think that it could make bikes even less noticeable? Ive known myself sometimes as a passenger in a car i can hear a bike, its kind of speed (slow-fast-INSANE) and its direction before i see it. Right enough, didnt stop us almost getting owned by an Asda truck on a roundabout when i was pillion on my stepdads blade today. But still i think being able to hear a bike makes them more noticeable. no?
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Josh|RD125LC
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PostPosted: 01:20 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
If that law does come in, I think we may be waving goodbye to thousands of bikes out there. The only bikes left on the roads will be 4 stroke hairdryers.

That ain't gonna happen! Evil or Very Mad
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd like to see anyone carry out a noise test which would stand up in court without the appropriate test facilities as described in BS ISO 362.

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/iso362_testarea.jpg

That is the layout of the area you need, and the whole setup takes about two acres of clear space. The test procedure (for cars at any rate) is laid out in the attached document. Motorcyles are tested in a similar fashion.

In a report I wrote:

Testing stipulations

The vehicle was tested according to the regulations laid out in the BS ISO 362 standard.

Test site
The testing site was the ISO noise circuit at the MIRA proving grounds. The paved surface was laid as detailed in BSI ISO 362, with a surface conforming to BSI ISO 10844:1994- Acoustics Test surface for road vehicle noise measurements. The centreline of the test track, C-C lay in the NE-SW direction. The wind during the test was south-westerly with an average speed of 6.7ms-1. The air temperature was an average of 8.8ºC, at a pressure of 1011 hectoPascals (hPa). The surface was clean and free from absorbent material such as fresh snow or mud.


Measuring equipment
Noise measurements were carried out by sound analysers positioned 7.5m from the centreline of the test track at a height of 1.2m above ground level. The analysers were calibrated using a pistonphone both before and after the tests to verify their accuracy, and were fitted with windshields.

All test equipment conformed to IEC 60651:1979 – Sound Level Meters and IEC 60942:1988 – Sound Calibrators respectively.

Background noise level
The measured A-weighted sound pressure level typical of the background noise was 48dBA re 20μPa.

Test Vehicle Identification
The vehicle tested was the Ford Mondeo 2.0 litre TDCi passenger car. The engine was of an diesel inline four cylinder layout mounted transversely in the front of the vehicle, the vehicle being front wheel drive.

The vehicle had four road wheels, each of which was shod in identical 205/55R16 tyres. The tyre pressures were 31 psi in both front tyres, 29 psi in the near side rear tyre and 30 psi in the off side rear. All tyres were less than a month old and all had a tread depth of at least 5mm.

The test mass of the vehicle exceeded the vehicle kerb mass, with all necessary equipment for normal operation fitted, in addition to the following elements:

- Lubricant, cooling, brake and washer fluids.
- Fuel tank filled to at least three-quarters of the capacity specified by the manufacturer.
- Other basic equipment included a fire extinguisher conforming to BS 6165:2002 Specification for small disposable fire extinguishers of the aerosol type, spare wheel, toolkit, and wheeljack.
This means that this test vehicle is a normal road-legal vehicle, which is suitable for testing.

Vehicle speed and engine speed
The vehicle speed at the beginning of the acceleration A-A was 50kmh-1. The engine speeds were not recorded at A-A.
The vehicle speed at the end of the acceleration (B-B) was 61 kmh-1 in both second and third gears, with engine speeds of 4250 and 2600 rpm respectively.

Auxiliary Equipment
Auxiliary equipment included air conditioning, which was turned off.


The 2.0 TDCi Mondeo failed the driveby test when we did it. Ford must have fudged it when they did their tests, but that's the name of the game. Mr. Green

How they expect the police to have the time to test a vehicle to that degree, let alone how they expect them to have the facilities suitable is beyond me. Confused
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White Noise
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PostPosted: 01:42 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Background noise level
The measured A-weighted sound pressure level typical of the background noise was 48dBA re 20μPa.


Laughing so it has to be done in the middle of a field miles away from a source of noise?
mchaggis what is it you actually do?
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 01:54 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
That was part of the final year of my degree course (Automotive Engineering). A rather intensive week of testing and report writing at MIRA.

At the moment I'm still trying to work out exactly what I'm going to do next. Moving back up to Aberdeen and working in the oil industry is interesting me at the moment, as is a Mechanical Design Engineer post designing earth moving equipment. That's excluding the Forces and all the normal main automotive players.

Edit: the equipment we were using could pick up the Range Rover Sports doing maximum speed runs on the banked oval about 100 metres away, over a hill. It made almost a decibel difference every time one went past. Carrying out the test near any traffic would be bad news, and buildings to reflect the noise would be even worse.
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Flip
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PostPosted: 02:01 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
So... bikes with stock cans will be OK and those with after market can could be f*cked? Is this what they're saying? Confused
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 02:12 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
flip wrote:
So... bikes with stock cans will be OK and those with after market can could be f*cked? Is this what they're saying? Confused


Show me a bike which would make less than 74db under heavy acceleration in third gear from 50 km/h? Confused The new Hornet 600 perhaps? VFR800?

My understanding was that they all had to get EU type approval, including the drive by test. I can't see how they could pass it with their normal cans.

Quote:
[ Annex E (informative)
INDOOR TEST OPERATION ]

Indoor Test Operation

If the manufacturer has a capability of doing this type of testing and the facility shows good correlation with the outdoor testing then the following information can help provide an in improvement in the correlation of the various facilities.

E.1 Concept:

The exterior noise test operation described in this standard is designed to measure the noise radiated from the vehicle to the bystander on the street during an urban driving cycle. One of the principal criteria of the standard is that it be done in an acoustic free field or more precisely a hemi-anechoic space. These criteria can be reproduced in a laboratory by installing absorbing wedges in a large dynamometer room providing the same effective propagation media.

E.2 Room Requirements:

The microphones can be placed at a distance of 7.5 m from the center of the vehicle if the room is approximately 14 meters wide for a single side facility or 27m for a dual sided facility. The determining factor in the width dimension is the low frequency cut-off. As a general rule the microphones must be ¼ wavelength from the absorptive walls and the absorptive media must be nominally ¼ wavelength of the lowest frequency of interest. As an example, if the 4 cylinder engines being tested have a low engine speed of 1000 RPM then the lowest frequency is approximately 34 Hz and the wedge depth is nominally 2.6m. The length of the longest vehicle of course determines the room length. For a typical vehicle of 5m length the room should be 36 m long. The height follows a similar set of requirements however a nominal value used is 7.5m to the wedge face. The size can be adjusted to meet the specific application for the products being tested.

E.3 Dynamometer Requirement:

There are any numbers of dynamometer drive systems available for this use. The unit must be capable of applying a road load to the drive wheels of the vehicle, in many cases all four. The unit must also be designed to be quiet enough to be 15 dB below the lowest level being measured in the test cell. In general a dynamometer with an operating level of near 50 dB(A) will meet most requirements. In general the 1/3 octave or other spectrum analysis should be made to ensure the overall usability of the facility for design work. In addition to the acoustic considerations, the facility should also be able move sufficient air to remove dangerously fatal exhaust fumes that are part of the test during open exhaust development work. The control of the ambient temperature is also a consideration. Generally an ambient level of 20+/- 3oC is feasible for most applications. Finally the dynamometer unit must be able to follow the rapid transient of the acceleration cycle. The operation of the vehicle is most often a computerized throttle application but if the air extraction system allows for remote extraction of the exhaust a person can operate the throttle. However human variation increases the variation of the total measurements.

E.4 Microphone Placement:

Typical facilities currently in use have from 15 to 20 microphone placed in a line on each side at a distance 7.5 m from the longitudinal centerline of the vehicle. In most cases the array is evenly spaced along the line, however in some instances the microphones are concentrated at a close



Just goes to show you should read all the documentation before you refer to it. Neutral Note that that is a working draft, but it looks all there as far as I can tell.
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Flip
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PostPosted: 02:49 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's just silly.

All of it. Thumbs Down
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 09:51 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
I'd like to see anyone carry out a noise test which would stand up in court without the appropriate test facilities as described in BS ISO 362.


Who says they have to? Hardly like such a test is required for the MOT test, where just the testers opinion of the noise level is sufficient.

By the way 74db from the current 80db limit is a 75% reduction in the noise level. Fairly certain no current bike would have a hope in hell of passing that noise test. Quite likely no unfaired bike could be made to pass it (and even with the engine turned off and the bike being towed it would still make a load of noise from the chain, etc).

Also remember that to an extent bikes are fudged to get through the noise test. Build a nice flat spot in at half peak power and you stop it accelerating for the noise test. Bit of fiddling with the jetting and the flat spot disappears, at which point the bike now accelerates and fails the noise test.

Years back Motad were doing a new exhaust for the FJ1200. It failed the noise test as when it was accelerated through the test zone it had enough torque that it just broke traction and spun the back wheel up, with the engine just bouncing off the rev limiter.

All the best

Keith
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 12:12 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
mchaggis wrote:
I'd like to see anyone carry out a noise test which would stand up in court without the appropriate test facilities as described in BS ISO 362.


Who says they have to? Hardly like such a test is required for the MOT test, where just the testers opinion of the noise level is sufficient.



An MOT test is one thing, but confiscation of your bike is quite another. Fail an MOT test and you fix the problem and retest it. Get deemed by the police to have a too loud bike and your bike gets confiscated just on the word of a police officer? What's wrong with a rectification notice?

I would have hoped that for a black and white issue like noise emissions they would at least actually test things properly. I can see people getting their bike impounded just because an officer is feeling vindictive when they get backchat from a rider. I think we can probably be sure that there would be contests of confiscations in court. Like you say, very few new bikes pass the driveby 74db test without considerable fudging, and older ones don't stand a chance.

This government seem to wonder around just looking for ways to ban things and to turn everything grey and lifeless. Screwing over the population and expecting us to be grateful seems to be their latest card. Rolling Eyes
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R6jonny
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
If I get caught doing any of the listed things 'again' they can nick me bike and fine me, etc, I think. Still got the piece of paper, was tempted to frame it as it amused me Razz.




sounds more like a warning under the police reform act sec 51 if i rrecall ......ASBO's have to be granted by a court


HTH
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Vespa
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
.

Last edited by Vespa on 14:29 - 01 Nov 2005; edited 1 time in total
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
An MOT test is one thing, but confiscation of your bike is quite another. Fail an MOT test and you fix the problem and retest it. Get deemed by the police to have a too loud bike and your bike gets confiscated just on the word of a police officer?


They already have the power to do this.

https://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20030--f.htm

Some legislation wrote:

59 Vehicles used in manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance

(1) Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-

(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and
(b) is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,
he shall have the powers set out in subsection (3).

(2) A constable in uniform shall also have the powers set out in subsection (3) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle has been used on any occasion in a manner falling within subsection (1).

(3) Those powers are-

(a) power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;
(b) power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;
(c) power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;
(d) power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs to (a) to (c).
(4) A constable shall not seize a motor vehicle in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this section unless-

(a) he has warned the person appearing to him to be the person whose use falls within subsection (1) that he will seize it, if that use continues or is repeated; and
(b) it appears to him that the use has continued or been repeated after the the warning.
(5) Subsection (4) does not require a warning to be given by a constable on any occasion on which he would otherwise have the power to seize a motor vehicle under this section if-

(a) the circumstances make it impracticable for him to give the warning;
(b) the constable has already on that occasion given a warning under that subsection in respect of any use of that motor vehicle or of another motor vehicle by that person or any other person;
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that such a warning has been given on that occasion otherwise than by him; or
(d) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the person whose use of that motor vehicle on that occasion would justify the seizure is a person to whom a warning under that subsection has been given (whether or not by that constable or in respect the same vehicle or the same or a similar use) on a previous occasion in the previous twelve months.


So if the exhaust can be regarded as "causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public" then they already have the power to seize it, and from memory you have no right of appeal against this, just have to pay up their fees.

All the best

Keith
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like they're trying to make new laws specifically to discriminate against bikers when their current legislation already covers it. Sounds familiar, they seem to like making new laws, perhaps to make it look like they're doing something constructive... Thumbs Down

No doubt their proposed new law would allow them to pull bikers over in the middle of nowhere and confiscate their bikes, even without there being any distress or annoyance caused to members of the public.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
No doubt their proposed new law would allow them to pull bikers over in the middle of nowhere and confiscate their bikes, even without there being any distress or annoyance caused to members of the public.


Not sure, it was mainly reported in MCN. Suspect they are just mixing up things to give a worst case scenario, such as some unlikely proposal to lower the noise limit along with existing legislation to allow seizure of bikes.

All the best

Keith
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kb-zxr
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope this dosen't pass through. If it does, and people start getting their bikes confiscated, I feel a lot of bikes are going to "fail to stop for a police officer" if they have a race can.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 08 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I didn't watch the Clarkson programme but I am lead to believe that he also commented that he would like to shoot a biker in the face.

Given his historic "I would like to string some cheesewire across the road" comment, some people are getting rather upset and sending messages of complaint to the BBC. I for one think he is just being childish and the best way to deal with that is to ignore him.

I mean I would like to kick Tony Blair in the balls, this does not mean I would expect a third party to act on this desire.

One of the threads on it is HERE if you are interested in complaining also.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Re: Top Gear talk of possible new bike noise laws Reply with quote
andy13_uk wrote:
the police are think of lowering the legal limit to 75db


The Police enforce legislation not write it.

It cannot be made retroactive so could only affect new bikes. I believe 75db is less than many cars so would be almost impossible to reach in fact the Polices own bikes would not meet it.
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Vespa
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PostPosted: 00:25 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
.

Last edited by Vespa on 14:36 - 01 Nov 2005; edited 1 time in total
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tokarev
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PostPosted: 00:46 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah Vespa that's the one.

stinkwheel wrote:
I mean I would like to kick Tony Blair in the balls, this does not mean I would expect a third party to act on this desire.

Lol stinkwheel, I misred the above section as this as I was skim-reading;
Quote:
I mean I would like to lick Tony Blair in the balls, this does not mean I would expect a third party to act on this desire.
Laughing Embarassed
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colin1
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PostPosted: 00:49 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
just a sec, im a biker, some guy has threatened to shoot someone like me, maybe i shd shoot him first to be on the safe side

i dont have a gun, so maybe i shd sneak into his house and stab him while he sleeps. I wd only be getting my self defence in early, as he threatened to kill me.

We invaded iraq for less.

of course i wdnt actually do that cos its way too much effort, but u get the principle
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Vespa
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PostPosted: 00:57 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
.

Last edited by Vespa on 14:37 - 01 Nov 2005; edited 1 time in total
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danclarkie
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PostPosted: 01:49 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
i want to send a complaint, how do you think this sounds Confused

Quote:
I would like to add my name to the presumed number of other motorcyclist that have complained regarding the comments made by Jeremy Clarkson on "Top Gear," aired on the 8th of August 2005. As a presenter on the BBCs flagship motoring program i regard Mr Clarkson as an ambassador for your company. Saying that motoryclist cause harrasment to his living conditions at home due to the noise they produce is fine as it is his opinion, to then encourage people to purchase a new Aston Martin because it can be heard from two miles away is just ironic. To say he would like to shoot a motorcyclist in the face or words to that effect is nothing short of threatening behaviour which causes undoubtedly more distress to us motorcyclists than we do to him with our bikes. Scince this comes form Mr Clarkson who i hold to be an ambassador for your company am i to believe the BBC holds a similar view on todays motorcycling, and might i add licence paying, public?

Thankyou


nice and long for them to read, anything to add/subtract please tell me before i post it Very Happy
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White Noise
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PostPosted: 07:27 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
danclarkie wrote:
scince


do a spell check on it Thumbs Up Laughing
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Gti
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PostPosted: 09:47 - 09 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
danclarkie wrote:
anything to subtract please tell me before i post it Very Happy


Yeah, all of it.
Christ the mans messing about for gods sake. You're making bikers look like pussies by writing to them and complaining, they'll think were like the old grannies who ring up because there was a swear word on the tv 3 minutes before the fucking watershed.

Fucking unbelievable how everyones taking it so seriously, take it for it is, a wind-up for uptight moaning twats.
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