Alternative powersource for motorbikes.

[stryker]

While browsing through the BBC news pages I noticed the article debating if oil production has peaked. On the feedback amongst the media controlled bush beating drones I noticed worrying comments about what we will do when oil runs low, which some think could be soon.

So here is the thought. While there are many alternative power sources for cars, such as hydrogen, what about motorbikes?

No, I don't consider a 9bhp bio-diesel powered bike an alternative for a nice shiny R1 when oil runs out. I'm thinking what could be done where the result would be a motorbike that looked, performed and operated like what we have now........ or will bikes as we know them change or disappear for ever?

Thoughts please.
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Now what?

[Vespa]

.

[Kickstart]

Hi

Nothing. There is no source that would be as good.

Electric power is a non starter, except for vehicles used for very short journies and never used for long journies.

Hydrogen / natural gas / lpg all have weight and storage problems for use on a motorcycle.

Bio diesel is probably the easiest source, but you add loads of weigth and complexity (turbos, intercoolers, etc) to get anything like the same amount of power.

Alcohol is the best source for fuel, but still limited by the far greater volumes required for the same fuel range, and also by the higher refining costs compared to bio diesel.

Realistically bio diesel is probably the most likely long term solution.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Milo]

There was a guy that used a VW Lupo diesel engine and stuck it in a bike.
Poo loads of torue, 400 mile tank range and a top speed he was too scared to try out.

I'd like manufacturers to try their hand at small diesel engines for bikes.

Then you've got the turbine engined's bike...but I think that's outside the remit of this post.

There's a fuel cell bike I believe, though I can't remembe the spec or range.

There's electric scooters, though they're not exactly a replacement.
Didn't Honda demo a concept eNSR a few year ago?
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Shaft drives rule.

[G]

4 wheeled vehicles can run on bio-diesel and produce about the same power.

Look at engine's from 50 years ago and see how far we've come; now imagine what we could do with another 50 years developing bio-diesel engines, considering we've already got a lot of the ground work done.

Don't see any reason that we couldn't have a bio-moto GP in the future .

[stryker]

Alcohol has got a decent energy density though, there is also no waste in the refining proccess, surely if done on a massive scale costs could be made comparable to petrol......

hhm then again the refining proccess must take a lot of energy with all that heating.....

So bottom line, no petrol, no bikes..... at least as we know them.
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Now what?

[extreme3d]

Ok, forget all the fanciful electrical... solar-powered...hydrogen fuel cell crap..... these below are real and perfectly possible:
Gas: Essentially its very easy to convert to gas as after all a petrol engine already runs on a gas when it converts the petrol in a gaseous fuel/air mixture. buses, Fork-lifts, trucks now use gas and they are not exactly short on power are they?!

Alcohol? Drag racing cars and Indy car racing in the US use Methanol as their fuel - slow... I think not!! Some countries use 5 - 10% Ethanol mixed with petrol (called GASOHOL) and even this small added percentage will drastically reduce petrol consumption.

ultimately its not fuel we need to be worried about but PLASTIC. Few people seem to realise where this stuff comes from... OIL!! Look around you... what ISN'T made from this material now!!

[spitfire]

I like diesel engines...if I could have one in my bike (same weight/power) I would, all that torque and no peaky revy power....my R6 would do more like 200miles to a tank full as well !

[stryker]

Most my bike is made of plastic
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Now what?

[Suzuki]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of petrol by volume, hence you need a far larger fuel tank for the same range. Although with minimal changes you could run a bike on ethanol, knocking 30% off the range of a VTR1000 could mean a lot of walking .

Diesels I do not like. Poor throttle response (no throttle, so not surprising) and slow revving, they just do not appeal. Also fairly dirty emissions and the engines are heavy compared to petrol engines.

Although people say we should stop burning oil to keep it for making plastics, how many plastics can you actually make from the proportion of oil that is burnt? Or would that stuff just be pumped back into the ground it not burnt (not as far fetched as you might think).

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[G]

[MarJay]

Plastics aren't all made from oil...

Don't make the mistake of assuming that all plastics are the same. They aren't. There are over a thousand different types of man made polymers, and only a reasonably small proportion of those are made from oil.

So I'd stick to worrying about Petroleum blends...
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[extreme3d]

[MarJay]

Methanol makes more power per volume... less per molar mass... than petrol.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[John C]

[Robby]

Its a long way off.

Technology being very quick, and we don't have to restrict ourselves to one fuel here.

Alcohol. You need to burn more of it, so a tank doesn't last as long.
But if its only got 2/3rds of the enegry by volume compared to petrol, thats not too bad. 120 mile tank range instead of 160 on a commuter isn't too bad, you can always have a bigger fuel tank. Also 30-50 years more work on engine design and we can be expecting some pretty good fuel economy. They might even try using some efficient cylinder head design on bikes.

Diesel. Its slow to rev, its heavy. But look at diesels today compared with 10 years ago. We have ranges of small cars where the hot one in the range in the diesel (New mitsubishi colt/smart forfour). The diesel is now often slightly more powerful than the equivalent petrol (about 5-10% up). So in 10 years diesels have cracked the horsepower problem by better turbo design and being able to make decent high pressure injection pumps for the right cost.
Give it 10-20 years and I'll expect them to have sorted out the throttle response problem, particularly if some manufacturers start making diesel bikes in the time period.


I won't be worrying about it too much. Theres always going to be something to give me a kick.

[spitfire]

[Vin]

1. Surely even with very efficient gas or diesel engines we are still relying on oil so will ultimately end up in the same position. Best plan is not to have kids and keep using.

2. If we have diesel bikes what am I going to call 4-strokes?? Mini diesels?? Pseudo diesels??

[Robby]

More to the point, what are you going to call a diesel 2-stroke?

[yorkshirelad3]

this threads getting a bit bitchy, put the handbags away boys.

https://www.nancyfarmer.net/dolls/web/welcomepage_fn00x_034.jpg

[spitfire]

[Kickstart]

[John C]

I’ve not got the energy for a full-blown argument, and besides, the above was only meant in jest, however reading it back I can see how you took it the wrong way.

[Vin]