Does ethnicity relate to intelligence?

[Major_Grooves]

A lecturer at Leeds University was recently suspended for suggesting in a personal interview with a student paper that he believed that your ethnic background can influence you intelligence: New story.

Or to put it sensationally - he suggested whites are naturally cleverer than black people.

Leeds University have decribed his views as 'abhorent'.

His opinion relates to the Bell Curve theory, (a book by the same name was written about it a few years ago), which basically says that while any race has it's intelligent and stupid people, the average for a particular race is shifted towards more or less intelligent.

So the guy has been instantly labelled as an 'abhorent' racist. Is that just the PC brigade, scared of any mention of race, jumping in with both feet, or are his views really so evil.

I was thinking about this exact point recently. I don't see any reason why different ethnic backgrounds might have different levels of intelligence. Although upbringing/environment affects your intellectual development too, everything that about us depends on our genetics too. We already know that certain ethnic groups can be more susceptible to particular diseases, some drugs companies have even developed drugs specifically for individual ethnic groups as they respond differently. Why should intelligence be any different.

Personally I think it would be too simple to suggest that 'whites are cleverer than blacks'. There are so many subsets within each group that you might find, for example, that North Africans were generally more intelligent that West Africans.

Moreover I think the 'white vs black' thing is wrong. I bet the Asians are the cleverest! Somebody actually said to my girlfriend the other day that they assumed she was clever because she is Chinese!

I don't think it would be easy to proove either way as it is too difficult to seperate ethnic backgroud from environment.

So... what do you think?

[tokarev]

I believe that all people have the same level of inteligence no matter what ethnic background they come from. Our brains are all the same size.

At university I know some very intelligent black people whom are on target to get a first in their degree in computer science. You guys must know that it is pretty hard to get a first! Only a handfull of students will get a first whilst most will get a 2:1

My dad is a psychology lecturer for the University of London (has done loads of research about the human brain knows a lot about the human brain)...so I shall seek his opinion on the subject when I meet him next! But I am sure I remember him saying that all humans have the ability to be equally inteligent, it is just down to how hard you are willing to work.

[zaknafien]

[killa]

There are some good points there I guess, the debate could go on for ages.

Biologically I have no idea if whites are cleverer than blacks you’d have to leave that to science, but then I’ve always thought ‘what is clever then?’ is it seen as people who are amazing at maths, science, or brilliant at English.
You might say that a scientist is really clever because he is studying a cure for cancer, but does that make him naturally cleverer?
If someone from a poor country did an IQ test no doubt they’d get next to no points but that doesn’t mean they are stupid.
I see many ethnic minorities coming to England to make a fresh start, for example people from Pakistan may have come from a poor area over there, when applied over here in England, their natural drive and determination to achieve the best they can in life means they can take full advantage of learning a profession like becoming a doctor or surgeon.
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[danzai66]

When i did my psychology degree there was a story about an answer to a exam question which went something like this:

'describe how you would measure the intelligence of dolphins.'

now, you could go on for ages about how you would set up tests for spatial awareness, lateral thinking etc but if you just said:

'the question is irrelevant as it implies intelligence as a human construct'

you would get a first.


for two lines.


marvellous.


errr..that had nothing to do with the question. sorry. hungover...
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[craigie b]

I think its a shame the guy is being buried under an avalanche of racial claims. What if he is correct? We discover different genes all the time that make people more genetically adept at certain tasks, so why not intelligence? I'm currently reading a book about the Ghurkas and they definitely have a different make up from everyone else....by default they are all very small and mentally/pyhsically are very adapted to the vigours and hardships of living in a mountainous country. Up until fifty years ago their average lifespan was 29 years old, yet they have a mental attitude that belittles westerners ideas of what hardship really is....

Anyhoo I'm getting of track..What I am trying to say is different races can display certain traits so why should intelligence be any different?

The thing that annoys me with the proffessor being suppressed is the fact that it means discussion cannot be held over what factors have caused this discepancy (if it exists at all). For example, intelligence might not be down to genes, but the environment you are brought up in. Conversley this could be the reason why ethnic groups lag behind, simply due to all coming from the same environment.

I also agree with Killa in so much as its really quite hard to define what intelligence really is...Amazonian tribes who've never been exposed to western life have an intimate knowledge of their surroundings and have developed a complex system for living at one with their environment. Drop a clever westerner in the same scenario and they'd probably be dead in a couple of weeks. Intellignece can be measured in so many different ways, from resourcefulness, practical skills, right through to being intellectual.

To conclude I think its wrong to jump on the racial hate wagon because the guy said something controversial. The day we stop debating to find the truth, because it panders to the PC squad is a sad day indeed.

[tokarev]

[feef]

stating that it's possible for races to have differing levels of intelligence where there is some evidence to support asking the question at least, is less racist as stating every race must have the same level of intelligence without any evidence other than emotion and politcal correctness.

to take it to extremes, if one race was proven to be intelligent, and another race who had been proven to be unintelligent made a statement that you were all of equal intelligence, would that not be as "insulting" and racist as making the statement that one race is more intelligent as the other when it's assumed all are the same?

( i hope my thoughts are understood here.. I don't think it reads right)

a
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[zaknafien]

Interesting point feef.
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[Mister James]

There doesn't seem to be much debate or argument over the fact that black atheletes tend to out-perform whites in most fields. If that can be different, why not brain patterns?

Part of the argument AGAINST the Bell curve that I do think is quite compelling is that IQ tests tend to be forumulated for white westerners - the implication being that the actual questions are presented in a way that plays to our cultural upbringing and excludes someone raised in a totally different manner.

Personally, I think that culture and attitudes amongst various races have far more impact on their perceived intelligence than any genetic advantage.

The reason people assume asians are smart could be because their families tend to push them to excel. The reason people assume blacks are thick could be because their youth tend to get sucked into the criminal subculture where they spend more time blaming others for their problems than trying to achieve anything.

Those are generalisations, but I suspect that, on average, they make more difference than any physiological intellectual advantage I might or might not have over someone of another race.
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[8316]

[colin1]

Intelligence is quite hard to tie down. Its possible a race of people may have evolved particular aspects of their brain in a different way giving them an advantage or disadvantage in different task.

It is widely said that men have better spatial awareness for going hunting and women have better empathy for getting on with all the ppl in the village.

If that is true it doesnt mean all men are insensitive and women cant park a car but it may describe a general pattern.

In theory we have a meritocratic society where you can achieve success if you do well. We cant allow people to become stigmatised as inferior as they may get arsey and cause trouble.
People need to feel that if they try hard and succeed, that they will be respected and rewarded.

Insurance companies are allowed to use predjudices about the type of person you are to accurately assess your risk. This may not be fair to you as an individual to be lumped in with all sorts of bad risk people who appear to be like you but we accept it.

However if someone was to find a correlation between race and some negative quality and was to use that to discriminate, they would be breaking the law in some cases.

People discriminate and have predjudices which are as accurate as the insurance company's ones according to their information and experience.

However society cannot admit that such predjudices can be unfair to the individual but reasonable and accurate for the other guy making the judgement.

I think cultural reasons, family, expectations experiences have a big effect and its difficult to seperate that from genetics.

Its perfectly reasonable for me to assume a foreigner wont know about some things I do and how to do some things I know how to do. Equally he will know about things I dont and will be able to do things i cant.

However skin colour isnt necessaily a good indication of race as it only takes a few thousand years for people to evolve darker skin. Indo-european languages are similar because the people of india and europe come from the same stock so genetic make up is similar but skin colour is not.

I think cultures with a long history of civilization such as europe, india, china, japan etc will have people who are well adapted to living in societies of many people and all that that entales.

I think the lecturer is right but Leeds University cant admit that even if they wanted to. They dont want to as they would then be labeled racist and if you arent white you wouldnt want to go to a racist university would you.

Race affects all sorts of attributes so there is no reason why it cant affect intelligence.

However I dont think the lecturer could ever test his theory as any intelligence test would be affected by cultural factors, the experiences of the individual being tested etc not just by genes.

Black people are more likely to be poor than white people. Thieves are more likely to be poor to make them want to steal, so black people are more likely to be thieves. But I cant say that, as its racist even if its true. This is different from saying all black people are thieves but it might lead me to treat black people badly if I act on this. We cant have people being treated unfairly so we deny the truth to avoid people being unfairly discriminated against. Its better for society that we deny the truth publicly.

I disagree with people using predjudices to make decisions when they should be able to get more information to make a better decision but I disagree more strongly with trying to overcome predjudices by deliberately hiring someone to fill a quota. That sort of thing is counter-productive as it will mean that inferior candidates will be hired and reinforce any predjudices other workers have.

I think positive discrimination can also be used more slyly by managers to employ people who may not be good at the job but suite their needs. For example Tony Blair and his all women shortlists for MP candidates. This way he no longer has people who have come from local party politics with their own opinions and ideas(old labour). Instead he has well-behaved employees as MP's who vote the way they are told to.

ok so that last bit was a bit off topic that but it sort of all ties in

There is a long history of social upheaval in west africa due to the slave trade and the guns which were made available to africans there in exchange for slaves. Unstable societies that encouraged dishonesty aggressive behaviour and results in Nigerians having a reputation for being fraudsters. Its not that every Nigerian is dishonest but there are more dishonest people as a proportion than in other societies. These people have a selfish creative decietful intelligence.

Stable societies encourage a different type of intelligence.
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[Black Knight]

I don't understand the question? Pass?
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[phantomtek]

I for one don't think that race determines intelligence, I agree with Mister James, that it's usually upbringing that determines I.Q. I have made a personal choice that I want to do well in school to have a good life, get a good bike and enough money to support my chosen lifestyle. But others can't be bothered and want to mess about, but this is because they think this is ok, they haven't been told different and think that they can get away with it. I'm talking about some of my white schoolfriends. So I think this lifestyle choice will make them not want to learn and think that everything will be given to them on a plate, but sadly this is exactly the case, they will all get money off the Government for doing nothing.

At the start of 6th form, two Zimbabwean students entered my year, they are extremely intelligent, one of them got all A's in his Maths, Biology, Physics and Chemisty exams. Anyone who is familiar with AS level studies will know that this is probably the most difficult of combinations that can be chosen, and he got straight As. The other got one C and the rest As and was extremely disappointed in that grade, I would kill for a C grade in my Maths. Another example is there is a Turkish student in the upper sixth and he is really dedicated to doing his work, he came in on a Muslim exclusive day off so he could do work because he understands how hard you have to work to go to University and do the course he wants to do. And all power to him.

So in conclusion I think it is more culture that defines intelligence over race, these guys are being pushed hard by their families and themselves because they want to achieve, whereas others from the same race and others are just cruising through and dossing about because they think that life will yield for them.

My anyway.

[Irezumi aka Reuben]

[phantomtek]

[Kitten]

There are several problems with this type of research.

Firstly, the measure of intelligence is something which has no universally agreed unit. The IQ test is often quoted as intelligence, but the problem with IQ tests are that they are written by white middle class men. Hence, they are biased towards white middle class men doing well. Additionally, they are not a reliable measure as you can practice and get better at IQ tests.

IQ tests measure how good you are at IQ tests, not intelligence.

Secondly, Hernstien and Murray's Bell Curve was a very controversial book. One thing that was brought up is that the state (in the US) was supporting people who had more children and that it was those with lower measures of intelligence who were having lots of children. The book pointed out that the American population would untimately end up with lower rates of intelligence. This was seen as an attack on the black population, but could equally be applied to 'trailer park' white trash I guess!

Thirdly, the west views intelligence as academic qualifications. Some South American countries value the skill of weaving pattens in fabric, the more intricate the pattern, the more intelligent the weaver, regardless of weather thay can read or write.

IMO It was right for the professor to be punished in some way as many many bad things have been justified in the name of academia in the past. Many people believe everything they read and if it is a Professor saying it, it carries more weight.

There is no reliable, universally agreed, unbiased measure of intelligence, so real comparisons between anyone can never be made. Not that there is any value in making such comparisons anyway.
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[tokarev]

[Mister James]

[tokarev]

Sure!

I think what he was trying to get at with those examples is the thinking behind this Leeds University lecturer (thinking non-white people are intellectually inferior)....basically trying to say that this lecturer is thinking how many people thought 500 or so years ago especially when the empire was being built!

All cultures pick up things from one another (e.g maths from one culture, built upon by others to what it is today, or gunpowder from the chinese brought around the world and then that idea being built upon to be used in guns by us westerners etc..) It is just human nature to learn new things from someone and develop them further (and thats what is happening now worlwide with all cultures). But I think what that shows is that people from all cultures/races (white/black/brown...whatever) have the ability to understand eachothers work hence showing that there is equal intelligence capabilities of all human beings.

[Rookie]

I have skim read this, so excuse me if I repeat things.

I'd say intelligence definitely isn't down to ethnicity, but, as has been said, the circumstances in which we are brought up. If you teach a child to kick dogs all day, it's going to end up a pretty nasty piece of work.

But then there is the issue that in this country, a large percentage of ethnic minorities are not well-off enough to be near a good school, or be in a good area. So their poverty affects how the kiddies turn out.

Also, if we're talking about 1st generation immigrants (parents of the children emmigrated to the UK) the education standards from the countries they derive may be lower. As such, the parents would have little or no interest in education, which undoubtedly would rub off on the children.

I think if we did a national IQ test in which everyone took part (for arguements' sake, let's say there was a seperate test for under 18s, under 16s, etc etc) we might find a very slight deviation towards white, British born, 3rd generation plus (grandparents at least, born in the country) being of higher intelligence. But I think all that shows is that the education standards in our country is higher than those of other countries. And it would show that because 'nice' areas have predominantly white students (I go to a very good school in Cheddar, and out of 800 of so students there are probably 30 who aren't white - this is a state school, by the way) these white children have higher IQs. But it isn't because they're white, but because of the conditions in which they're been raised.

[JonB]

[Visitor Q]

Its not racist to state Blacks are better at athletics because of their different muscle structure...



Racism (as the other thread stated) is any suggestion made by whites about non-whites. Thats it.

This pc bollocks makes me so mad, but its a battle that cant be won.
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[colin1]