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Iraq
We must withdraw we've made a mistake
58%
 58%  [ 17 ]
Nah its going well we've got the oil
41%
 41%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 29

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Mister James
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PostPosted: 01:13 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
carlnicholsony2k wrote:

Pretty much bang on with that Mr J.


An awful habit of mine that I'm trying to give up. My apologies once again! Wink

craigie b wrote:
...quite a bit


I broadly agree with most of that - except for the comment re. launching military operations from a 'very hostile' country. While Afghanistan is no picnic, the casualty rates compared with Iraq are so low as to be almost insignificant. Again, like Iraq, the majority of the violence is concentrated in small areas of the country - while the larger proportion of the population goes about it's business in relative peace.
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Last edited by Mister James on 13:43 - 11 Apr 2006; edited 1 time in total
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craigie b
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
While Afghanistan is no picnic, the casualty rates compared with Iraq are so low as to be almost insignificant. Again, like Iraq, the majority of the violence is concentrated in small areas of the country - while the larger proportion of the population goes about it's business in relative peace.


I dunno, from what I've read the area the Para regiment is about to operate in is being described as a hot bed for trouble. The officers are predicting a body count on par with the falklands and I've seen reports that state the Taliban & drug barrons are about to begin an offensive against UK forces within the southern region.

https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1965621,00.html

So whilst your assesment is largely correct, I think the area we've based our troops is not particulary suited for launching an offensive unless they intend to passify the area first then use it as a launching platform to Iran (or at least obtain political points by having a threating presence).
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Spiral
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I may not like the idea of iran having nuclear capability but no one in the west has the right to deny them it.

Is iran any worse than china or the koreans has iran ever declared war on our country?

Back in the 80's iran had the backing of the west now there the new boogey man, i belive if the west invade iran the rest of the middle east will ally themselves against the west, and which ever country's are involved will find no help from the other main powers and be isolated from the international community.

Also i truly belive that if the iranians wanted a nuclear weapon or even a biological weapon to attack the west they would already have done so, they have the resources and intelligence that even if they could not do it themselves they would be able to acquire it through other means.

If america wants to invade iran i say 'let them do it on their one then we can sit back and watch their house of cards come tumbling down!
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craigie b
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PostPosted: 12:16 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
You see, you've fell for the Iranian propaganda over our own Laughing
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Robby
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Great. Another cold war.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 11 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spiral wrote:
the americans are working covertly on the ground in iran with rouge groups preparing to paint military targets


Goddam pinko liberal degenerate faggots.
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biggerjohn
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spiral wrote:
I may not like the idea of iran having nuclear capability but no one in the west has the right to deny them it.




Fucking watch us

There is no way any Muslim nation should ever have nuclear weapons. They have an ingrained disregard for human life that scares the crap out of me.

And all other points aside international law (nuclear none proliferation treaty) is in place to stop countries that don’t already have nukes from developing them.

I look at these “leaks” from the US and see them for just what they are warnings to the Iran government that we will use every thing in are power to stop you having nukes so please lets talk as sort this out peacefully.

Why else tell the media about “plans” to attack Iran?
Iran already knows the US will have contingencies plans made they don’t need the media to tell them that for whatever else ay be said of them there not stupid.


I hope are both sides will do the wilily waving to gain a better bargaining position for themselves and this will be resolved peacefully.

I just some how doubt that will happen with the clerics and imam still running Iran with a puppet president as there public face.


If military action is taken against Iran I don’t think it will be as we saw with Iraq but an Air campaign targeting and destroying all of Iran’s nuclear facilities using conventional arms.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
biggerjohn wrote:


I look at these “leaks” from the US and see them for just what they are warnings to the Iran government that we will use every thing in are power to stop you having nukes so please lets talk as sort this out peacefully.

Why else tell the media about “plans” to attack Iran?
Iran already knows the US will have contingencies plans made they don’t need the media to tell them that for whatever else ay be said of them there not stupid.



If military action is taken against Iran I don’t think it will be as we saw with Iraq but an Air campaign targeting and destroying all of Iran’s nuclear facilities using conventional arms.


i agree with these bits, but i think it will make iran more keen to develop nuclear weapons than less keen. If they have nuclear weapons, america wont invade them for fear of reprisals.

If they open their doors to weapons inspectors, america will just use the information gained to plan bombing runs.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
biggerjohn wrote:


I look at these “leaks” from the US and see them for just what they are warnings to the Iran government that we will use every thing in are power to stop you having nukes so please lets talk as sort this out peacefully.

Why else tell the media about “plans” to attack Iran?
Iran already knows the US will have contingencies plans made they don’t need the media to tell them that for whatever else ay be said of them there not stupid.



If military action is taken against Iran I don’t think it will be as we saw with Iraq but an Air campaign targeting and destroying all of Iran’s nuclear facilities using conventional arms.


i agree with these bits, but i think it will make iran more keen to develop nuclear weapons than less keen. If they have nuclear weapons, america wont invade them for fear of reprisals.

If they open their doors to weapons inspectors, america will just use the information gained to plan bombing runs.
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biggerjohn
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
COLINWALL wrote:

i agree with these bits, but i think it will make iran more keen to develop nuclear weapons than less keen. If they have nuclear weapons, america wont invade them for fear of reprisals.

If they open their doors to weapons inspectors, america will just use the information gained to plan bombing runs.



I don’t think the US fears reprisals in the conventional way as I don’t believe Iran has missile capable of delivering a bomb to main land USA I believe it really fears Iran will supply nukes to terrorists.

And as was said before they just don’t get the idea of “Mutually Assured Destruction” as they place no value of human life even less on less on the life of “infidels”.


If I honestly thought Iran nuclear ambitions lay solo in civilian power production then I would applaud and welcome them into the nuclear club but I would still fear for another Chernobyl type accident.

But sadly even if the idea at this time is for a purely peaceful power production what happens in a few years as political tides change and you end up with a militant Muslim nation witch just all so happens to have enriched plutonium on hand (by product or running a nuclear reactor) witch just about any Muppet could turn into a potent nuclear device.
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Spiral
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lets face it the only reason the west wants to stop iran from having nuclear capability is fear.

But its not fear that we may be attacked but the fear that the west will lose control of the oil resoucres in the middle east.

Any military action took againist iran will only galvanise other muslim nations againist any sort of cooperation/dialogue between them and the west and will make the middle east a no go area for any foreigners for many years to come.

A bit of sarcasm Wink

I dread to think what would happen if the muslims could actually defend themselves from the western powers and even more shock horror the fact that one day they might even control there own resources in their own countrys!
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Davo
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spiral wrote:
Lets face it the only reason the west wants to stop iran from having nuclear capability is fear.


To be honest I'm split on this issue

Part of me doesn't want Iran to join the Nuclear club, as the regime does appear to be a little unstable. In my opionion I don't think Israel will let them carry on development for too much longer.

However the other part of me says who are we to say what a country can & cannot do.

Quote:
If I honestly thought Iran nuclear ambitions lay solo in civilian power production


In which case why not accept the offer that Russia gave them? Which to me suggests they want more than just the ability of power generation.

(Russia offered to supply pre processed radioactive materials to Iran)
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Spiral
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 12 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Davo wrote:

In which case why not accept the offer that Russia gave them? Which to me suggests they want more than just the ability of power generation.

(Russia offered to supply pre processed radioactive materials to Iran)


At the moment iran have rejected russia's offer but they know that america will not want to launch an offensive during the summer (it gets pretty hot and lets face it that situation in iraq is not going well) so the iranians will make the talks last a few months and probaly then accept russia's proposal.

Then we will see america do one of two things, either they will ignore everyone and invade iran, or they will try to get nations to impose economic sanctions against iran.

But this is after the war in iraq and america has burned a lot of bridges they don't have the support to impose sanctions as they did with korea, so it'll be nice to see the america government generate more lies like 'iran has nukes we must invade' propaganda.

and if tony blair and jack straw start coming out with the same crap well i hope they get forced out of british politics forever.
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biggerjohn
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 13 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Davo wrote:


However the other part of me says who are we to say what a country can & cannot do.



We are the same people that told Hitler what he can’t do



I don’t see an invasion of Iran as that has been proven unworkable but massive air strikes reducing there nuclear facilities to rubble now that I can see happening.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 05:15 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
biggerjohn wrote:


We are the same people that told Hitler what he can’t do



yeah but Hitler invaded quite a few countries

Iran hasnt invaded any countries that i know of, and its ages since iraq invaded anyone but we still invaded them.

Id say America is behaving more like hitler than Iran is at the moment. Usually america can control countries without invading them though with a combination of aid and sanctions.
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Kwaks
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islamic countries don't have a history of invading others, Iran only wants nuclear technology for two reasons, one is to support their power requirements for when their oil runs out,thats just forward thinking. The second is to make america think twice about rushing in to steal their oil before it runs out. Fair play if you ask me.

I have no fear of Islamic countries having modern weaponry, I grew up over there and they are very friendly people and do respect other cultures,as long as they dont threaten their own.

The problems in these countries only started because of the west interfearing,and to a lesser extent the old soviet union. We helped put the Taliban in power,we helped and armed Sadaam in his dispute with Iran, Years later we end up fighting these guys.

The problem is simple, the west destabalised the middle east after WWII and we are now seeing the fallout for our arrogant and poor decisions.

Why can the west not see that democracy is not the only way to run a country? Places like the Emirates do pretty well without democracy.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
kwaker6r wrote:
Islamic countries don't have a history of invading others, Iran only wants nuclear technology for two reasons, one is to support their power requirements for when their oil runs out,thats just forward thinking. The second is to make america think twice about rushing in to steal their oil before it runs out. Fair play if you ask me.


another reason is that switching from oil to nuclear means they can export millions and millions more barrels of oil a day = more money

This is a good and a bad thing , more oil supply = prices go down a bit or stay stable , bad cus Iran will probably not want to sell oil in USD but Euros like Saddam , and look what happened to him when he changed from USD to Euros.


Kwak I'd also state that democracy is looking like a failed experiment in that democracies all seem to be turning into tyrannies rights safeguarded by the manga carta 800 years ago have been down trodden using the politics of fear.
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Spiral
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I watched an american program last night which was talking to various american citizens about the situation with iran and i think they feel the same about bush and his administration as we do about blair and labour.

We were lied to before, we went to war over lies that even the majority of intelligence agencys counted as fake we will not do it again.

But another analogy by one of the guests on the show was that over 100 hundred years ago britain and other european countrys were doing there very best to prevent african and middle eastern nations from obtaining guns or the process of manufacturing weapons for themselves.

Basically for fear them nations that we occupied would go to war against us.

They did not while we superior nations went on to fight not one but two world wars.

The same in america were the majority of the white ruling people who had for decades enslaved black men and women then tryed to stop black people from owning guns for fear that they would be turned against them.

They did not when they were finally treated as equals.

And now we are in the same situation we are trying to prevent a lesser technical country from bettering itself for fear it might attack us.

They say actions speak louder than words and if we should judge nations on their actions and not their words we will find that it us who should be feared and us who should be curtailed from now on.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spiral wrote:

But another analogy by one of the guests on the show was that over 100 hundred years ago britain and other european countrys were doing there very best to prevent african and middle eastern nations from obtaining guns or the process of manufacturing weapons for themselves.


And Africa has really worked out well with all those modern weapons, hasn't it?

Oh wait, no - they are butchering each other on a daily basis, and countless millions have died. Still, don't let that get in the way of a shakey anti-imperialist analogy.

Quote:

The same in america were the majority of the white ruling people who had for decades enslaved black men and women then tryed to stop black people from owning guns for fear that they would be turned against them.

They did not when they were finally treated as equals.


And of course, black street culture has nothing to do with guns at all now, has it? There is no gang culture of firearms use, nor are there huge numbers of murders with guns, eh?

What kind of screwed up comparisons are these anyway?

Quote:

They say actions speak louder than words and if we should judge nations on their actions and not their words.....


We'd find that Iran is supplying militants and insurgents in Iraq with hi-tech weaponry - as well as supporting them with clandestine agents of their elite praetorian guard.

We'd also find that their president has announced his intention to wipe Israel off the face of the map, and that it's hard to watch a single press conference about nuclear power without hearing "Death to America" in the background.

Fuck 'em - international politics is all about self interest. I don't want them to have the bomb, and neither should you.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 22:23 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Iran will probably not want to sell oil in USD but Euros like Saddam , and look what happened to him when he changed from USD to Euros.



this interests me, i think i heard about this on bc before with a link to the news story . it might have been kickstart who posted it.

i dont know enough about economics to know how badly hit america wd be if oil exchanges switched to euros rather than dollars but i guess it could be big.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


We'd find that Iran is supplying militants and insurgents in Iraq with hi-tech weaponry - as well as supporting them with clandestine agents of their elite praetorian guard.



seems perfectly resonable to me that Iran would want to keep america busy in iraq so they dont invade iran. Also even if America asnt so hostile to Iran, Iraq has been in the past so you cant blame Iran for wanting Iraq to remain crippled with unrest so they dont become a threat to Iran again.

Its hardly as if america have never supported militants or insurgents to destabilise regimes. So America protesting is like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Spiral
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 14 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

And Africa has really worked out well with all those modern weapons, hasn't it?



Nearly all the guns in africa have been produced by a european country or supplied by a european country

Mister James wrote:

And of course, black street culture has nothing to do with guns at all now, has it? There is no gang culture of firearms use, nor are there huge numbers of murders with guns, eh?



So what your saying is that all black youths are associated with guns?

As i would say a lot of young black people would disagree with you, but lets not get of the point that was made, america prevented the african american population from owning personal fire arms for decades because of fear.

Now they have the right to have personal firearms though now with recent surveys on the topic of banning personal firearms the african american population has outnumbered the white americans in favour of a ban, they are hardly embracing a gun culture.

Also i don't think many countrys in the middle east view israel as a freindly state as it itself has hardly been a shining beacon of peace has it?

I don't think anyone/nation should have nuclear weapons!
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 15 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spiral wrote:
Mister James wrote:

And Africa has really worked out well with all those modern weapons, hasn't it?



Nearly all the guns in africa have been produced by a european country or supplied by a european country



Pay attention 007.

If you are going to make a point, try and make sure it's not irrelevant.

Leaving aside the fact that AK-patterned weapons are at least as prevelant as old FAL's in Africa - my point is that Europe's concerns over Africans having access to hi-tech weapons have proven quite valid.

Quote:

Mister James wrote:

And of course, black street culture has nothing to do with guns at all now, has it? There is no gang culture of firearms use, nor are there huge numbers of murders with guns, eh?



So what your saying is that all black youths are associated with guns?


Once again, pay attention.

Black street culture quite obviously refers to a specific group or groups, rather than everyone with dusky skin. Please don't waste the effort putting words into my mouth - you should really concentrate on ensuring yours make sense.

Quote:

As i would say a lot of young black people would disagree with you, but lets not get of the point that was made, america prevented the african american population from owning personal fire arms for decades because of fear.


Whoah - hold on. You accuse me of a generalisation, and then jump straight in with a wild and generalised accusation yourself!

AMERICA - all 300 million people of it, stopped teh eval blicks from having guns eh?

To be honest, even if we take that at face value, it makes a lot of sense, considering they had the blacks enslaved. Not equitable maybe, but good common sense all the same.

Quote:

Also i don't think many countrys in the middle east view israel as a freindly state as it itself has hardly been a shining beacon of peace has it?


So of course, promising to annihilate it with nuclear weapons is perfectly acceptable?

Quote:

I don't think anyone/nation should have nuclear weapons!


Too late - we've got 'em, they want 'em.

Here's a little tip: Try and deal more with the facts on the ground, and less with generalised and totally irrelevant comparisons.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 15 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
COLINWALL wrote:

seems perfectly resonable to me that Iran would want to keep america busy in iraq so they dont invade iran.


So perfectly reasonable for them to murder British soldiers without a declaration of war?

Perfectly reasonable for them to assist in the murder of Iraqi civilians - fellow muslims?

Fuck off!

Quote:

Also even if America asnt so hostile to Iran, Iraq has been in the past so you cant blame Iran for wanting Iraq to remain crippled with unrest so they dont become a threat to Iran again.


Yes I can. It's murderous, unpleasant, and in case you hadn't noticed, your comments are a little outdated. A little moustachioed chap called Saddam was the instigator of the Iraq/Iran war. I don't know if you've heard, but he isn't calling the shots anymore.

Quote:

Its hardly as if america have never supported militants or insurgents to destabilise regimes. So America protesting is like the pot calling the kettle black.


America isn't protesting, I am. I'm simply pointing out that there is perfectly good evidence to justify war against Iran, as they have effectively declared it against us. Woolly liberal muppets can debate whether Iran is justified in taking action against us until they are puce in the face and their cashmere sweaters melt - Iran IS taking that action now.
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craigie b
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 15 Apr 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
A little moustachioed chap called Saddam was the instigator of the Iraq/Iran war.


lol, with the backing and blessing of the americans, saddam waged war against Iran. Lets not forget the Americans were partly responsible for keeping that region in war for years since they didn't want Iran to win.
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