Councils too powerful?

[Mister James]

[senna_f4]

M James,
So my understanding is you have no objection to the fineing but what worries you is an "off-duty" worker caught the culprit

I see no problem in that, why?

1. You girlfriend is being raped by a physco, an off duty policeman passes by and saves your girlfriend, but sadly the off-duty officer is fired and imprisoned for enforcing the law while off-duty.

2. off-duty prison office spots escaped child rapist/murderer and risking his life manages to pin him down and drag him to the nearby police station. Sadly pedo sues off-duty police officer for doing his duties while off-duty

I think there is too much of slack, the council should fine people such as this, and BBC should responsibly report the news, sensational journalism is for the tabloids.
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"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[G]

[Mister James]

[senna_f4]

[Skunkcap Freddie]

just blank them.

not like they can put there hand in your pocket and take your id out.

unless they've a copper besides them i won't stop.

maybe laugh in there face
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Northern Irish Biker? www.nibikers.com

[Mister James]

[stinkwheel]

What Mr James is getting at, and I think he put it a lot better than I can is that what gives a council worker the right to arbitrarily decide you are guilty of an offence and punish you for it?

It is so open to abuse and miscarriages of justice. This is because this type of action is circumventing the established system of crime and punishment ie. the Executive passes the law, the Judiciary enforces it. Many of these by-laws have the executive acting as the enforcement authority, with no burden of proof. Even a civil offence has to be proven 'on the balance of probability'.

Just to give you an example. My younger brother had a case where a council parking warden falsely claimed to have attached a parking ticket to his car. Now, as it was, there were five independant witnesses to this fact. The fine was revoked and the parking attendant was instructed to provide my brother with a written appology. What would the outcome have been if he had been by himself?

Then we get into the whole sticky issue of proportionality. Someone throwing an apple core out of their car window would be fined the same as someone throwing a boot full of black bags out in a local beauty spot. The fine is arbitrary and does not take into account the relative seriousness of the offence.

On a more personal note. I reckon there would be a lot less fly tipping and general littering if the councils wised up and realised that the way to reduce landfill is not to give people smaller bins and refuse to take anything that isn't in it. This is what happens in my town so if you produce more than a binful of rubbish in a week, what the bloody hell do they expect you to do with it?

Put it in somebody elses bin? Then what the hell is that person supposed to do? Put it out in a bag? The binmen wont take it then the council turn up and root through the bag looking for something with your address on so they can fine you. Take it to the skip site 15 miles away? Make sure there is nothing identifying it as yours and throw it in a laybye?

Well, people do the latter.

If you want to reduce landfill, find a way of reducing packaging. I generate a horrendous amount of rubbish, most of which is totally unecessary packaging. I don't want the stuff, I don't look for the stuff and making my bin smaller can in no way make it any less.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[map]

[zaknafien]

[Kickstart]

[senna_f4]

Mr James,
With no offence to you or anybody, I do understand your points perfectly well.
What I fail to see is how is this requirenment supposed to be enforced?
1. Should a lolipop case go to court while a muderer waits trial?
2. Should a police officer be present for every small anoyance?
3. What about the safety of the council staff, I know your point, but say you wear a name badge. Even if you lawfully did things within your rights I could tracer where you live just using the name and do something bad? Who is to protect their staff? The few people who should shaow their names are police officers.

4. Are things like this realistic in the UK? Do we want 10 million oficers, 1 million judges all paid fat salaries to deal with littering, parking tickets?

5. Would people care to pay a council tax of £20,000 to fund this extravagent policing sytem?

I think not, but feel free to object as you see fit.
____________________
"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[Mister James]

[Kickstart]

[Kickstart]

[map]

[senna_f4]

Stinkwheel,
I am sorry to hear of what happened to your brother.

By the way I do not work for the council

I agree with almost all your points on waste etc, but I would point out;

1. Fines aren't fair to the victim and how do you make a realistic fair fine?

"Then we get into the whole sticky issue of proportionality. Someone throwing an apple core out of their car window would be fined the same as someone throwing a boot full of black bags out in a local beauty spot. The fine is arbitrary and does not take into account the relative seriousness of the offence. "

Are you seriously suggesting that the council build a database of all possible waste and fine accordingly?

So according to the proportianity rule would fine for the core from a "granny smith" apple would be more than the pips of a "conference" pear? Or wait
should a old thong be fined less than a tent?
or omg I am running mad,

Sorry Mr.James this is an automated reply with reference to your e-mails "Naturally, the 3 emails I have sent to the council about various matters go unanswered - I'm struggling to understand why my £1400 a year goes"
as the councilors are busy trying debating wether the fine for the core from a "granny smith" apple would be more than the pips of a "conference" pear. Please do nto reply to this e-mail.

My point is that many of the points trying to fine tune the law may not be practical, where is the cut off point?

Sorry if I so cause any unnecessary offence, my apologies
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"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[Mister James]

[craigie b]

[Mister James]

[craigie b]

^^^^^^^THATS FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.....YES THE COUNCILS HAVE TOO MUCH POWER.

[Kickstart]

[stinkwheel]

Another point is the bloody-minded application of these rules. I for one couldn't give a shit if some lass left a lolly stick lying. You always could be ticketed for littering but a policeman would almost certainly have told the lass to "Go and put it in the bin and don't let me catch you leaving litter lying about again." and left it at that.

I'm pretty sure what will have happened is the council litter warden will have thought "I have to issue 60 fines before the end of the week to meet my performance target, 1 down, 59 to go.". With a healthy dose of "I'm wearing a peaked cap and am therefore important. I will now prove it by overzelously applying the small amount of power I have been given."

Crap like that gets right up my nose, they do themselves no favours.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[senna_f4]

[senna_f4]