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Three Points or do a Course

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Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
...Statistically you are on thin ice....

There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

Anyone who has to quote statistics to put forward an arguement is on dodgy ground. This is because someone else can examine the same data and often come to different conclusion. That's fact.

...and IMO Christopher Booker does seem to get his head round it
Telegraph - Booker wrote:
...a small child being killed by a car driving down a busy street at 35mph, as if to show us what breaking the limit leads to. The average speed at which pedestrians are hit in 30 and 40mph limits is in fact 11mph. Of accidents involving vehicles and pedestrians, only 1.5 per cent of victims die...


So I can only assume you would advocate setting a speed limit of 11mph in built up areas. Why not go further and suggest any powered vehicle has to have a person carrying a red flag walk in front of it Rolling Eyes

Guess we'll just have to disagree. As said, doesn't seem fair if the police are taught it's ok to go over the limit if conditions allow (and no, that's not on a call with the blues and 2s).

Brick Wall
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Walloper wrote:

I think it very noble of you Stinkwheel to pit your wit against a University Professor on your exam paper in an attempt to pass. What if he is only looking for answers and not conjecture from a smart arse?


conjecture
1. Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
2. A statement, opinion, or conclusion based on guesswork: The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election.


No, a university professor is never "only looking for answers". They are looking for you to provide reasoned argument to justify a point of view using either your own evidence or valid evidence of others to prove it within accepted scientific method. If you were to indulge in conjecture, you would certainly be marked down.

School teachers are still allowed the indulgance of telling someone "You are wrong" or to call them a "smart arse" because they don't agree with you or because your oppinions deviate from the rote learning laid down in the 'required syllabus'. University exam papers are only marked using ticks, never crosses.

In real life, most accepted 'facts' are far from black and white. The statistics of road traffic accidents in particular are a very muddy grey. Muddied further by external agendas. Scientific technique requires that you challenge and query a hypothesis at every oppertunity. This is the only way to ensure you don't get stuck in a rut with as you put it, conjecture and dogma.

If we didn't do this, the earth would still be flat and at the centre of the universe, god would have made the world in seven days in 4,000BC and Japanese motorcycles would only rev to 6,000rpm.


You are completely correct in what you write stinkwheel.

But I maintain, we can only live by what we are told or decide through experience.
In some people's experience they learn too late to change their opinion in time.

Crash testing and accident investigation now is more scientific and more accurate than before, or did the performance and safety of modern motor vehicles just sort of happen?

I accept that there is a load of shite around using stats. as reason.
And that round stats can be hammered into square peg holes by smart statisticians.
As can books be fiddled by astute C.A.s

I don't always need a lesson in Eengleesh from my Vet either.
He's paid to digitise my pooch’s rectum and prescribe those 'Wee White Panacea-Like Tablets'
But your tutorage in this is accepted. Laughing

I know that there are exceptions to most rules.
Speed does kill.
It is a natural fact.
Look at trees.
They live longer than man does.
Why?
Coz they don't move very fast...

(That was an exceptional argument.)
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:
Walloper wrote:
I have an opinion, I can debate.
If reasoned.

The man who was driving to work started early 05:00.
Thinks, No one around at this hour I can give it some.
Milk boy delivering milk thinks, No one around at this hour I don't need to check the road for traffic.
Bang.
Milk boy dead.
Motorist surprised and feeling like shit.

Statistically you are on thin ice.

Firstly. For offering to bash anyone who disagrees with you. You will be plastered some day.

Secondly. Your attitude to road safety.

Thirdly. Your wish to inflict injury and pain on yourself.

I am not brain washed. I can, as most at BCF can, make decisions based on reasonable evidence without going to the extremes of reality to prove a lesser point is the real issue.

I am not going to call you names, use foul language, or goad you anymore.
You may not be of sound mind and could try to pop the next soul who upsets you with one of your guns.


Was that lot aimed at moi?

I like my environment slighty anarchic. It appears you want your's highly regulated and regimented. By others.

I reserve the right to decide my own speed, where and when it suits me and I believe I'm capable of exercising that responsibility safely, a belief supported by the results of nearly thirty years of operating vehicles on the queen's and emperor's highways.

And if I kill anyone from hereonin it'll be your fault for hexing me.


I hereforth remove the Ju Ju I put on you.

Sorry. Laughing

I live as fast as I can.
I live by rules to fit in.
I can't be arsed with hassle of the rule makers some times.
As I'm sure you do more or less the same.
We are all free up to a point.
Until we own our own planet we need to keep between the lines. Karma
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:20 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Re: Three Points or do a Course Reply with quote
Hi

Seems either you are in max wind up mode, or have been brainwashed.

Walloper wrote:
At 30 you may kill some one if you hit them
At 35-40 you most probably will.
It was clear enuf to me and not really a con trick


Very big con trick, because it is equating the speed you are travelling at with the impact speed. An aware driver at 35 will be going far slower at the point of impact that the asleep driver doing 30.

Walloper wrote:
All the shite we read about Scam cams is just that
There are strict government rules for camera schemes and one of them is that there needs to be two serious accidents at the location before a site is considered.


They are routinely ignored and are merely guidelines which they are at liberty to ignore. There are famous fiddles they have done to justify a camera. Such as the suicide on the M4. Or the one on the other side of London where an accident on a bridge over a dual carraigeway was used to justify a camera on the dual carraigeway.

The speed camera sites are meant to be signposted as well. They get round that by putting signposts up everywhere.

All the best

Keith
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Sephiroth
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PostPosted: 23:24 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
They put this new 'thing' up by me now. It's basicly a big black sign which has little LEDs in it which make up the number thirty inside a circle.

It has a little camera on it too, any idea of what it is?
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 23:26 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bostonshiredemon wrote:
Unfortuantely, statistically you are also on dodgy ground.

The majority of accidents are caused by somebody making a mistake, either not seeing somebody or failing to act, speed then amplifies the effects of this accident, speed on its own does cause accidents, but a lot less than dodgy road surfaces, defective brakes and bad observation do.

The only way to prevent accidents is for no one to move, ever, then you cant bump into anyone or thing, but how fun would that be?


Ah Grasshopper...
You never paid attention in class.
Speed is a very significant factor.
Only drive at a speed that it is safe to do so
Or in other word a speed that you can safely stop.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 23:28 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:

But I maintain, we can only live by what we are told or decide through experience.
In some people's experience they learn too late to change their opinion in time.


I maintain that you are also foolish to believe everything you are told.

Quote:
I don't always need a lesson in Eengleesh from my Vet either.
He's paid to digitise my pooch’s rectum and prescribe those 'Wee White Panacea-Like Tablets'
But your tutorage in this is accepted.


I was merely emphasising your use of a word that could be used to support either side of the argument Wink, I'm sure you are fully aware of its meaning. Also worth bearing in mind that whilst I have a vocation, my degree is in science, thus by definition I studied philosophy. I wasn't taught pure facts, I was taught how to determine facts for myself.

Rectums aren't strictly digital in that they don't change state between either 1 or 0. They only have variations of the same state, o, 0 and O. Laughing
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bostonshirede...
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Ah Grasshopper..." dont no wat thats on about but anyway...

"Only drive at a speed that it is safe to do so
Or in other word a speed that you can safely stop"

You got done for doing 35 in a 30, are you saying this 5mph would have effected your ability to stop THAT significantly???

If you pay more attention to the road around you, i put it to you that a careful rider paying attention at 35 is LESS of an accident risk than one not looking doing 30
Neutral
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Re: Three Points or do a Course Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Seems either you are in max wind up mode, or have been brainwashed.

Walloper wrote:
At 30 you may kill some one if you hit them
At 35-40 you most probably will.
It was clear enuf to me and not really a con trick


Very big con trick, because it is equating the speed you are travelling at with the impact speed. An aware driver at 35 will be going far slower at the point of impact that the asleep driver doing 30.

Walloper wrote:
All the shite we read about Scam cams is just that
There are strict government rules for camera schemes and one of them is that there needs to be two serious accidents at the location before a site is considered.


They are routinely ignored and are merely guidelines which they are at liberty to ignore. There are famous fiddles they have done to justify a camera. Such as the suicide on the M4. Or the one on the other side of London where an accident on a bridge over a dual carraigeway was used to justify a camera on the dual carraigeway.

The speed camera sites are meant to be signposted as well. They get round that by putting signposts up everywhere.

All the best

Keith


30mph gives an over all stopping distance of 75 feet.
that means: you see, think, react and stop,
within that chain of events you will have decelerated.
(providing the road is dry, in good condition, and the vehicle is road worthy)
Why do people assume that 30 is the speed you would hit someone at?
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bostonshirede...
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 16 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:


Hiting someone at 30 would kill them.


that might be why? Very Happy
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bostonshiredemon wrote:
"Ah Grasshopper..." dont no wat thats on about but anyway...

"Only drive at a speed that it is safe to do so
Or in other word a speed that you can safely stop"

You got done for doing 35 in a 30, are you saying this 5mph would have effected your ability to stop THAT significantly???

If you pay more attention to the road around you, i put it to you that a careful rider paying attention at 35 is LESS of an accident risk than one not looking doing 30
Neutral


Do the test.
Stand in front of a vehicle stopping from 30mph
and the same distance when stopping from 35mph.
Chicken?

Furthermore:
Surely then if we 'all' were more attentive, accidents would not happen?
The principle is that 'IF' there were to be an 'Accident' your chances of avoiding a fatal or 'life changing' injury are drastically reduced.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bostonshiredemon wrote:
Walloper wrote:


Hiting someone at 30 would kill them.


that might be why? Very Happy


You still haven't smelled the coffee.
I have never suggested hitting someone at 30(mph).
I have repeatedly corrected this assumption throughout this thread.
It is the speed you would be travelling at BEFORE you see a reason to stop.
The figures compute an OVERALL stopping distance.
That is: the distance/time you need to stop.
If you are looking ahead/not lighting your fag/eating your crisps/talking to your mate on the phone etc. You will stop within the calculated time/distance.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Re: Three Points or do a Course Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
30mph gives an over all stopping distance of 75 feet.
that means: you see, think, react and stop,
within that chain of events you will have decelerated.


Just as you would if you were going faster. Go below the speed you naturally feel is safe then you will pay less attention. Which will increase reaction times. A 1 second increase in reaction time (from driving dozy at 30) will increase your overall stopping distance by about the same as driving at 40 rather than 30

Walloper wrote:
Why do people assume that 30 is the speed you would hit someone at?


Not sure, you should have asked them that on the course rather than accepting it as fact.

Come on, admit you are trying to wind people up.

All the best

Keith
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bostonshirede...
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Joined: 02 May 2006
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:


Do the test.
Stand in front of a vehicle stopping from 30mph
and the same distance when stopping from 35mph.
Chicken?

Furthermore:
Surely then if we 'all' were more attentive, accidents would not happen?
The principle is that 'IF' there were to be an 'Accident' your chances of avoiding a fatal or 'life changing' injury are drastically reduced.


Your test is pointless and proves nothing against my argument, im not argueing that it would take a slightly greater distance to stop at higher speeds, that would be stupid, what I am argueing is that a rider paying attention at 35 has a greater chance of seeing you EARLIER and thus stopping than one not paying attention at 30, brakeing too late and hitting you.

And yes, for your point, i think it is certainly true that if everyone on the roads could anticipate what was about to happen by being more attentive, accidents would not happen regardless of the speed people were going. As i said before, the only way to stop accidents completely however is 2 ways: 1) nobody moves or b) everybody moves at a constant speed, no slowing down ect, both of which are ludicrus.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one lol Smile
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hands-up who's actually ever run someone over on a motorcycle (speeding or otherwise).

I did. Hit a lad while braking hard from 30mph. Kid ran out from behind a bus shelter without looking. He was uninjured, I had skinned knees and a buckled wheel.

If I'd been doing 40, he would have run out behind me. Thinking
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 00:14 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:

I have never suggested hitting someone at 30(mph).
I have repeatedly corrected this assumption throughout this thread.
It is the speed you would be travelling at BEFORE you see a reason to stop.
The figures compute an OVERALL stopping distance.


Right, so you see a pedestrian walk out in front of you 300 feet in front of you. A distance almost sufficient to stop from 70mph according to the highway code. Yet magically because you are doing 35mph rather than 30mph your stopping distance dramatically increases so that you manage to hit someone while still going quick enough to kill them.

Or roughly translated, if you were told that the effects of doing 35mph rather than 30mph refers to the speed before reacting then you have been fed a pack of lies.

All the best

Keith
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:16 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
On the contrary
I said it 1st. Laughing

I could counter almost every valid post you make but I know when the statement falls within the realms of reality.
But I could still pick at it.
But that would serve no purpose.

FYI
I fell off my f*cking bike last week.
My stopping distance was 6 feet.
My big arse was deployed skillfully for that.
I was doing 20 mph.
Only killed my NCD.
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bostonshirede...
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PostPosted: 00:17 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SVXEl4qePSY

Thumbs Up Very Happy
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:18 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:

There's a reasonable balance to be struck, and under current legislation we're about a million miles to the nazi side of it.


Although the Nazis invented autobhans. A road with no fixed speed limit on which you can go as fast as you like, but on which, if the police think you are going "too fast" for the conditions, you will be pulled up.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 00:25 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do you not think that if you want to be a safer rider you would gain more from doing some (more if you have done) advanced training to be give your self a much lower chance of hitting someone in the first place?

Your comments about speed limits not having raised because there's a low experience boy racer driving, blah, blah... So then, it will be fine for me to exceed the speed limit lots as I ride a performance motorcycle with good tyres, don't listen to music and have upgraded brakes, never mind lots of experience braking very hard while racing? Smile.

A stopping 'test' against John's 325i with ABS showed me stopping in almost half the distance. Maybe not the same for his M3, but especially as my bike weighs a lot less and is a lot skinnier, maybe I should go four times as fast to be similarly 'safe'? Smile

Last edited by G on 00:27 - 17 May 2006; edited 1 time in total
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bostonshiredemon wrote:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SVXEl4qePSY

Thumbs Up Very Happy


So you are awake now lad. Laughing
Your quip referrers to Einstein’s theory of relativity.
(That's not your mum's brother's wife's auntie's cousin BTW.)

Yes, if you go faster you will not hit them coz they haven't reached your 'space in time'.
And the same argument for if you go slower.
You will not hit them coz you will not have reached their 'space in time'.
Thanks for unwittingly hammering home my point.
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bostonshirede...
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:




Yes, if you go faster you will not hit them coz they haven't reached your 'space in time'.


No mate, thanks for hammering home ours Very Happy

O and btw - Einsteins theory of relativity has nothing to do with time, einsteins theory of relativity states that E=mc2

where e is energy, m is mass and c is the speed of light - time does not feature until his later work - just thought u'd like to no for future reference Laughing

btw i'm doing A-Level physics and maths if u wish to debate the finer points of einstein
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK Siggi man.
Your rules for your world. Karma
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bostonshiredemon wrote:
Walloper wrote:




Yes, if you go faster you will not hit them coz they haven't reached your 'space in time'.


No mate, thanks for hammering home ours Very Happy

O and btw - Einsteins theory of relativity has nothing to do with time, einsteins theory of relativity states that E=mc2

where e is energy, m is mass and c is the speed of light - time does not feature until his later work - just thought u'd like to no for future reference Laughing

btw i'm doing A-Level physics and maths if u wish to debate the finer points of einstein


I get my education from the Good Dr. Stinky on here thanks.
FYI

speed (spd)
n.
1. Physics The rate or a measure of the rate of motion, especially:
a. Distance traveled divided by the time of travel.
b. The limit of this quotient as the time of travel becomes vanishingly small; the first derivative of distance with respect to time.
c. The magnitude of a velocity.

bostonshiredemon you are a collective?
Interesting stand you are both making today. Laughing Razz
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bostonshirede...
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 17 May 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
I get my education from the Good Dr. Stinky on here thanks.
FYI

speed (spd)
n.
1. Physics The rate or a measure of the rate of motion, especially:
a. Distance traveled divided by the time of travel.
b. The limit of this quotient as the time of travel becomes vanishingly small; the first derivative of distance with respect to time.
c. The magnitude of a velocity.

bostonshiredemon you are a collective?
Interesting stand you are both making today. Laughing Razz


a) No i am not a collective, i am the one and only & b) are you now trying to argue that Speed = Time ? cus that wud just be plain mad Confused Very Happy
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