What's going on with CBT's???There's no such thing as Fail!!

tonyyzf · Brolly Dolly Joined: 13 May 2005 Karma :

Having just read a recent post about 'failing CBT'S' I would like to ask the instructors on the forum their views.

When I was training the idea was to give adequate training that ensured the rider was capable of riding on the road unaccompanied. There was no such thing as 'pass' or 'fail', where did this come from or is it a way of ripping people off to get more money? The certificate given was proof that they were capable of riding a bike, not a 'pass' certificate.

The CBT IS A TRAINING COURSE, NOT A TEST! See below, It should be done in a manner that provides the pupil with suitable training, everyone is different, some have experience, a lot don't, the time it takes to train someone is determined by their ability, not the time you can be bothered to be with them, if they don't gain the ability in the time you can be bothered to give them, which by all accounts isn't very long in some cases, then surely you get them back again, you can't give them a 'fail' and ask them to pay for the CBT again.
Ok, fair enough, I had one or two toughies where I felt obliged to charge a little extra for time and fuel but this was after a couple of long sessions over two weekends.

Surely the pupil deserves good value for money, the off road part is only complete once they are capable of controlling the bike with confidence, then and only then should you attempt the road section, to take pupils out on the road who can't set a bike moving from a stand still and who have no idea of the rules of the road is pure laziness on the instructors part and is bloody dangerous.

From the Driving Standards Agency:-

Compulsory basic training (CBT)

CBT is a course of compulsory basic motorcycle training which must be completed before a learner moped or motorcycle rider is allowed to ride unaccompanied on the road with L-plates, D-plates in Wales. CBT was introduced in 1990 to help reduce the very high accident rate among inexperienced motorcyclists.

You will need to complete CBT if:

* you want to ride a moped (engine not over 50cc with maximum design speed not exceeding 50km/h (approx.31mph)
* you want to ride a motorcycle

If you obtained your car licence before 1 February, 2001 you do not need to complete a CBT to ride a moped.

What does CBT involve?
The CBT course involves five elements:

1. introduction
2. practical on-site training
3. practical on-site riding
4. practical on-road training
5. practical on-road riding

The five elements have to be completed in sequence, although the order of the exercises within the element can be varied. You will only move on to the next element when your instructor is satisfied you have learnt the necessary theory and demonstrated the practical skills to a safe basic level. Trainees must, by law, receive a minimum two hour on-road ride in Element E.

Certificate of completion (DL 196)
When all five elements have been satisfactorily completed, a certificate of completion, called the DL196, is issued. This is a legal document which validates the relevant entitlements on your driving licence.
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Jenks · World Chat Champion Joined: 22 May 2006 Karma :

Well when i did it, He said to me "Right Adam, im going to give you your CBT" Then to my friend, he said "Right, im sorry but im not going to give you your CBT, because you need more practice...

It isnt really a fail, its just if they still cant get the hang of it.
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tonyyzf · Brolly Dolly Joined: 13 May 2005 Karma :

And thats the way it should be, more training if required, not a fail as has been given in some places.
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Something dark reddish with two wheels and cagiva written on the side
SS50, CB175, CB250N, CB350, CB750K2, DT250, CB750K1, CB750F1, XS1100, CB750F2, FJ1200, FZR1000, YZF1000, GSXR1000, Cagiva Navigator, Triumph Tiger 1050
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Rob · World Chat Champion Joined: 16 Mar 2002 Karma :

Yep, that's exactly right. You can't 'fail' a CBT as it's not a test, but if the instructor finds that after your days training you are not up to the required standard to be safe on the public roads then they can refuse to give you a CBT certificate and recommend more training.
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matt89 · Crazy Courier Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Karma :

i was told that i could not fail it aswell and that if he did not think i was up to the required standard then he would send me home before we were going to go out on the road and tell me to come back another day Thumbs Up

Matt

veeeffarr · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Karma :

From what I've heard it's usually a day riding around cones and if you're not quite up to scratch you get the next day to train a bit more and go out on the road.

Not sure though as I finished mine in 6 hours.

T

Steve - RS125 · Spanner Monkey Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Karma :

I cant argue a case for it being a test or being a training course as both reasonings are plausable.

However I can say this, upon taking my first CBT I was not allowed out on the road they finished my course at about 1:00 and sent me home.

They invited me back 2 days later to re-take the test / be given extra training (Whichever term you choose to use) free of charge.

However, I was let out of that CBT with a certificate saying I was a compotant rider and had the ability to ride on the road - Did i heck, I could not ride for shit. I was riding on 40mph at 25/30 due to being scared shitless of going any faster.

I personally believe that the CBT should be made a little more in depth, last longer or become an official test in which you have to learn for.

Anyhow 2 years on I am still hear, have never come off nor crashed *Touches wood* and I can keep up with the best of them.

So did the CBT work? In my eyes not really as the majority of the learning was through my own mistakes on the road after the training, however it did give me a footing / grasp for riding in which I am now competant.

Wow that post has gone on a bit of a tangent, its almost irrelevent to the whole thread. Laughing

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Rob · World Chat Champion Joined: 16 Mar 2002 Karma :

Steve - RS125 · Spanner Monkey Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Karma :

no_shad · Trackday Trickster Joined: 17 Apr 2005 Karma :

I was told on my CBT that you couldn't fail it but they would ask you to keep coming back until you're up to scratch.
Not sure if you would have to pay for an extra days training though.

Marah · World Chat Champion Joined: 05 Jun 2006 Karma :

Can't comment on todays standards. But I done a CBT at 16 and 20 first one being 14 years ago Shocked

Anyway on both occasions I was there at 9am started off with a half hour in classroom before spending about 2 hours in the training area. Doing all the stop starts, riding at walking speed figure 8s etc. Then half hour again in class discussing good/bad points. Then lunch then back into training area to see who was ready for the road. The 2nd time one guy clearly wasn't he was given the time in the afternoon to practise in the training area whilst the rest of us went out on the road. Back in the class again to discuss what areas we need to be carefull with. Anyone that was a danger to themselves or others were asked to come back for free but had to pay bike hire which was about £15-20 a day. Didn't finish till 4.30-5.00.

Remember giving the instructor a lift to KFC as he couldn't drive Laughing

Scorpius · Scooby Slapper Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Karma :

You know you've failed when you get hit by a bus 10mins after leaving the centre. At funeral: He failed.
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Itchy · Super Spammer Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Karma :

yes there is there was this guy who had all the gear (a full alpine stars leathers , arai corsair helmet , £££ sidi boots) , during my DAS I saw him lots of times , he kept failing cus he could never brake .which is pretty important if ya ask me
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Lanman · Derestricted Danger Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Karma :

Did my CBT about a month ago. Got my new (second hand) YBR 125 three days ago and a helmet yesterday, so I was out on the roads at 5am this morning to get some practise without the traffic! It went fine, but I still have a lot to get used to with smooth gear shifting / not stalling / riding up to speed etc. I think I tripped a speed cameral doing about 32 in a 30Mph zone, because I was so busy concentrating on gears / mirrors / indicators etc - arg! Hope I don't get points / a fine.

As far as I'm concerned, the CBT is indeed a test with a pass / fail outcome, despite what anyone says. My instructor would not issue a certificate at the end of the day to the other girl who was learning with me. She was asked to come back - (no charge - but you have to pay bike hire), to get her to the required standard. If you ask me, if it's possible for an instructor to say "I'm not giving you your certificate", then it's a test with a pass / fail outcome. I never quite understood why the authorities / motorcycle schools seem to insist it's not! The only difference with the CBT, is that one fee covers you until you pass (not including bike hire).

insanefox · Two Stroke Sniffer Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Karma :

i had to go back 3 times and i only paid once No extra charge for bike hire this was almost 2 years ago and as i have still not passed my test i will have to go back again Evil or Very Mad

but i have my own bike now and with luck should pass first time lol fingers crossed

THCi · Nearly there... Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Karma :

I required more training, as I was a tiny little but hyper (read, jittery, adrenaline coffee fueled...) on the first attempt.

It may of been a case of more training was needed, but it did feel as if I had failed. At 18 it was just another set back to getting on the road, behind the financial setback.

Second time was good though Smile

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iremat · L Plate Warrior Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Karma :

To be honest I have no idea if you can fail or not.

but...

when I was doing mine there was another lad and he hit the curb on a scooter and fell over the handlebars... Shocked

and passed! Shocked

so im guessing no fails!

was so funny Laughing

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mashed · Derestricted Danger Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Karma :

when i done mine we spent an hour going round the car park and 20 minuits on the road

i think the only reason we spent that long in the car park is because the instructer was talking to his mate about his new bike, the feeling that i got is he couldn't give a shit if we could ride or not

Jaz · Renault 5 Driver Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Karma :

When I did the CBT there was two of us on bikes and 2 twist-n-go's.

When doing the slow control stuff they were belting round till they got behind the bikes then they were wobbling all over the place.

I had a few problems with locking the back break on the emergency stop and they said unless I did one right they wouldnt take me out on the road. Then they explained the trick of not bothering to pull the clutch in (as I'd been doing). That way the rear wont lock and you'll just stall (not a fail on the test, just a minor). Once I did that all was well Smile

Everyone passed in the end so I've no idea if they would charge more but they did put a little extra time in where needed and not just rush you through.