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AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES

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Sadie
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Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 23 Aug 2006    Post subject: AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES Reply with quote

I know you lot don't give much credence to MCN, but they have been mischief making (again) regarding the BMF's response to the Intelligent Speed Adaption (ISA) bike.

Motor Cycle News, the weekly newspaper, has been running a story over the past few weeks about the ISA (Intelligent Speed Adaptation) bike. It has also carried a story in this week’s issue (23/8/06) which says that the BMF has given the ‘thumbs up’ to the bike. This is untrue and is misleading. Here is an article written by BMF spokesman Jeff Stone for the BMF magazine, Motorcycle Rider.
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Shaun
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why should I believe something on the internet, it says right here in black and white the BMF support it, everyone knows you shouldn't believe anything on the internet. Wink
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EuropeanNC30R...
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PostPosted: 02:19 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMF wrote:
Personally I’d prefer to keep control, but putting that to one side, the technology does work.


BMF wrote:
It would need to given a field trial on real roads in the same way as the cars to get a thorough evaluation and even then, it wouldn’t work until all traffic was regulated in the same way – and we’re a long way away from that.


Don't the above two statements say that :-

a) It works
b) BMF would like more tests

?

I'm not a fan of MCN's sensationalist reporting but they don't seem to be too far off the mark here Confused
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Luke_Retrofly
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
IMO is unfeasable (is that how you spell it?) for many reasons.

1.Will they have to fit this to EVREY vehicle in britain? If so who pays for it and how?

2.Will it be for NEW vehicles only? If so we will all go round on second hand bikes, and keep fixing them if they break, instead of buying a new one?

3.Will it be british cars/bikes only? Could just pop accross the sea and get an import.

Plus dont we (the public) get a say in this. Surly its passed onto our local MP's who will not back a plan like this to go ahead. AFAIK I cant see it being very popular.

If it happens im just gunna blow up the houses of parliament with gun-powder or something.

Luke
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map
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Re: AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES Reply with quote

Sadie wrote:
...Motor Cycle News,...the ISA (Intelligent Speed Adaptation) bike...also carried a story in this week’s issue (23/8/06) which says that the BMF has given the ‘thumbs up’ to the bike. This is untrue and is misleading. Here is an article written by BMF spokesman Jeff Stone...

Just read that article and the impressions it left me with were:
Arrow Jeff Stone accepts the system works.
Arrow Jeff Stone agrees with the way the system works.
Arrow Jeff Stone accepts the system will be introduced (eventually).
Arrow Jeff Stone is speaking on behalf of the BMF.

If the BMF truly does now agree with the principle and implementation of ISA then why does it not release a clear and unambiguous statement along the lines of "the BMF does not support any system for use on a motorcycle that takes control away from the rider".

I suspect they will not do this because the BMF doesn't like to make waves and sees itself as being nice for politicians to talk to. I suspect politicians see the BMF as nothing to worry about. For the record I do not want to ride a motorcycle where I am not in control 100% of the time.

For comparision, what's MAG's stance on this?

In real life I don't see how the system will work given current GPS technology. My Garmin GPS regularly tells me insufficient signal.

Just my thoughts Karma
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if the BMF supports it then I think riders should vote with their feet and cancel or not renew their BMF subscruption next year and walk off to the MAG instead , since the BMF have obviously been infilitrated by government agents which act against the biking cause.

also Map , it is not based on GPS but Galileo the EU GPS which claims to be 0.5 metres accurate pretty big claims for a system that doesn't yet exist ,

such projects are supposed to justify the cost of Galileo , also GPS has a degrade facility , so some nut can't enter GPS coordinates into a GPS guided bomb.
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map
Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 14:06 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
...it is not based on GPS...
Only said GPS as taken from Jeff Stone's article
Jeff Stone wrote:
...In essence, bike, car or truck, the vehicle is fitted with a receiver that picks up a GPS signal containing the location of all speed limit zones...

Itchy wrote:
...GPS has a degrade facility , so some nut can't enter GPS coordinates into a GPS guided bomb.

The Yank satellites used for GPS can also be turned off at the whim of the US president if he thinks someone is/might/thinking of using it for terrorist purposes. So that's not a problem for the rest of the world then is it! Rolling Eyes
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 14:13 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's GPS driven...
https://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,77702,00.html

'Honest officer, can't have been speeding, my bike don't let me'

If it's speedo driven, I'll have mine driven from the front wheel, please Very Happy


In reality, I think bike organsiations should be against it - I like going over the speed limit, as do many others.
I do /not/ think this will reduce deaths significantly.
Yet again, we try to regulate rather than educate Rolling Eyes.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:


also Map , it is not based on GPS but Galileo the EU GPS which claims to be 0.5 metres accurate pretty big claims for a system that doesn't yet exist ,



Galileo doesn't yet work, is expected to have the same problems in built up areas GPS has and will be subscriber based (another stealth tax) ie it will cost you to use.

The Americans Military doesn't like it as they don't control it and can't switch it off, there have already been diplomatic arguements over it.

I'm also with Map, Jeff Stne does seem to be giving approval to the system.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

then vote with your feet and next year don't renew your BMF membership or cancel your current sub,

nothing else works.

Btw sickpup whatever happened to that shop that refused to fix your tyre or lend you tools for tyre fixing?,
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Luke_Retrofly
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Can anyone explain how easy/hard something like this would be to through parliament?

Would there be any way to stop, or could the gouvernment just force it through.

We are supposed to live in a democracy, but parliment rarely seems to represent the views of the public.

Luke
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MAG
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 17:37 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Re: AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES Reply with quote

[quote="map"]
map wrote:
For comparision, what's MAG's stance on this?


Hello All

First an introduction as the title suggest "MAG" I am responding to a request to post a response from MAG on this issue.

I wont comment on the BMF position as I have already had an email conversation on MCN and BMF with Sadie.

However to answer map, MAGs position is clear on ISA/EVSC as the day it was formulated in 2001.

MAGs press release is below and you can catch up on our position at https://tinyurl.com/e9cfy

Also you can view the history of MAG and EVSC - my ride on the ISA bike - and the Mulhouse Declaration which you can sign.

Thanks for the opportunity to post.

No to Throttle Control – No to Control

Issued 23rd August 2006

In the light of comments made in the motorcycle press about the acceptability of Intelligent Speed Adaption (ISA) technology, The Motorcycle Action Group wishes to make its position crystal clear.

MAG say, "No Way Jose" to External Vehicle Speed Control.

MAG President Ian Mutch was emphatic about the issue. "Let's keep this one simple, we don't want it, not today not tomorrow not ever."

Withdrawing control from the rider is fundamentally what MAG was set up to oppose.

MAG’s Director of Public Affairs Trevor Baird recently rode a prototype motorcycle fitted with ISA technology which was developed by the University of Leeds, the Department for Transport and MIRA (Motor Industry Research Association).

The system fitted to the bike slows the bike down through speed limits by acting on the throttle from information supplied by digitally mapped GPS signals. The system also warns the rider of the speed limit through audible alarms, flashing lights and vibrating apparatus in the seat.

Baird condemned the prototype technology as, "dangerous as it overloads the rider with information thus distracting concentration. Furthermore the apparatus as it is at present will close the throttle mid corner where consistency of power is critical to stability. However we must be aware of future developments that may overcome these shortcomings as the technology evolves."

Whatever technical improvements are made, MAG is clear about its position.

Motorcycling is about fun and freedom and control, your hand on your throttle, your decision. If people abuse that control and fall foul of the law then that is a different issue but when technology is deployed to directly control motorcycles then a big line is crossed and MAG knows exactly which side of that line it stands on.

This is ultimately a philosophic issue, it's not just about safety, it's about what sort of society we want to live in. MAG says, we don't want to live in a society with the level of control which ISA can make possible and we intend to get more votes for our point of view than the safety zealots get for theirs.

To this end MAG is re launching its 2001 campaign to oppose the compulsory fitment to privately owned vehicles of any device designed to arbitrarily remove control from the driver and asks all vehicle users to sign the Mulhouse Declaration on the MAG campaign website at www.mag-uk.org where riders can join the organisation on line .


Ends


Notes


1. Mulhouse Declaration and Campaign website at www.mag-uk.org

Issued by

Trevor Baird
Director Of Public Affairs
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Re: AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES Reply with quote

MAG wrote:
...MAG President Ian Mutch was emphatic about the issue. "Let's keep this one simple, we don't want it, not today not tomorrow not ever."....

Thumbs Up Thanks for the reply. Gets my vote. Very Happy

Now why couldn't BMF make a clear, unambiguous statement like that Thinking Whistle
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I emailed them at lunchtime and pointed them to this thread.

Talk about efficient! Cool Cool Cool

£20 well spent on my membership. I might join the missus up too, She doesn't ride but MAG need the support!! Smile
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MAG
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 18:04 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks map and MarJay.

I've been called a lot of things but never efficient Confused
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Mrs Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I had looked at MAGS website where there is nothing in press releases and nothing recent n the search somehow I missed the tinyurl.

I am not having a go at mag but Marjay prompted them ?

Regards
Charlotte
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MAG
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes our webmasters have trouble keeping up with the issues Sad

This issue and others are through the logo on the top right hand side "Campaigning Write to Ride Website" this is going to be changed so that it actually says what it is.

The tiny url is a way to get round posting very long links as the actual Campaigning website url is https://campaign.publicaffairsbriefing.co.uk/home.aspx?cid=bdce7270-76f1-4ac7-baa7-4f63210ed1d4

Hope this helps.
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Dark
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Lukes comment above, i can't really see it happening anytime soon purely because of the logistical nightmare of rolling it out.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 23:34 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
more info here

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 23:42 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hurrah for the MAG , the BMF will lose me as a member permanantly quite soon , they don't represent me any more.

I'd advise you to do the same ,

remember to tell your friends , so that they tell their friends so that they tell their friends and maybe when the BMF starts losing masses of members they may start to represent us again.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 24 Aug 2006    Post subject: Re: AUTOMATIC SPEED CONTROL AND BIKES Reply with quote

map wrote:
If the BMF truly does now agree with the principle and implementation of ISA then why does it not release a clear and unambiguous statement along the lines of "the BMF does not support any system for use on a motorcycle that takes control away from the rider".


That's unfair. BMF have taken a stance and are sitting firmly on the fence over this issue.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 00:42 - 25 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke wrote:
Can anyone explain how easy/hard something like this would be to through parliament?


Quite easily.

Firstly such plans are already well advanced for cars (they have had prototypes for cars driving round on the road, including a large scale fleet test, for a good few years). Partly they currently consider that with 60% of the cars on the road fitted with it everyone would effectively be limited by it, and with suitable effort they could get to that figure (something like requiring it for new drivers, or a VED discount, or reduced congestion charge).

Bike riders are a small minority in this country. Bluntly we don't matter, unless we can be used for political point scoring.

Such a system would also be claimed to be of benefit in reducing fuel consumption (which is being taken rediculously seriously, even talk of fitting trains with electricity meters to get the drivers to drive more efficiently), something that all 3 major parties seem to be badgering on about.

So we have a system that is mostly developed, has claims to save lives and reduce fuel consumption, and we have no political party that currently has an independent view on the issue.

All the best

Keith
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Luke_Retrofly
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 25 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
But what about the rest of the population, your not telling me that most of the public want this Question

Luke
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edd
Nearly there...



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PostPosted: 02:40 - 25 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

pff.. whatever happens its not going on my bike. If its there ill be removing it, if thats not feasible im going to another country.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 08:57 - 25 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke wrote:
But what about the rest of the population, your not telling me that most of the public want this Question


Many of the population will not give enough of a damn about it to object, and as mentioned they reckon it will only take about 60% of cars on the road for it to affect everyone anyway.

Probably the simplest way for that to happen is to misuse health and safety laws to insist that company cars must have it installed (part of taking any reasonable steps to protect the employees).

All the best

Keith
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