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pwntifex
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 Posted: 13:25 - 14 Oct 2006  Post subject: Teaching assistant suspended for refusing to remove veil |
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Story here
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 02:48 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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You seem to have misunderstood me. I've not got a problem with muslims in general.
For me, it's less to do with terrorism than with hiding your distinguishing features. The intimidation comes not because of recent middle-eastern events, but simply due to the fact that these women are hidden. Also, if you were to hold your hand in front of your face when in conversation with me, I would consider you extremely rude. The same applies
If you wish to hide your features from view, then to me you wish to make yourself less of a person; you are purposefully dehumanising yourself. Anyone who sets out to do such a thing should be given a wide berth, to be honest.
I object to having to share public transport/whatever with somebody I cannot see. If they were to remove their shroud I wouldn't care a bit; it's not an islam thing, or a woman thing - I'd hold the same opinion of middle-aged men dressed in sheets.
Another thing that bothers me is its arbitrary nature.
We allow this thing to happen and yet what sort of reception do you think I would receive if I walked into a petrol station with a balaclava on?
If you want to be served, given service, be employed, etc. then I think you should have to show your face. It's nothing to do with being muslim - something I wish these 'islamic brothers' would realise - but to do with showing people who you are.
Terrorism has been a big deal in the papers for years; they've just switched from the IRA to Al-Qaida now.
This irrational and unfortunately incredibly fashionable talk of 'civil liberties' never ceases to astound me. I would worry about the people who come out with this sort of thing turning their children into paranoid obsessives who believe everybody is out to get them.
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TheDonUK
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| Posted: 03:28 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Also, if you were to hold your hand in front of your face when in conversation with me, I would consider you extremely rude. The same applies. |
I disagree the two are nothing alike, holding your hand in someones face is an invasion of their personal space, a veil is what it is.
| Quote: | If you wish to hide your features from view, then to me you wish to make yourself less of a person; you are purposefully dehumanising yourself. Anyone who sets out to do such a thing should be given a wide berth, to be honest. |
Then i suppose what makes us human is completely aesthetic, and what you choose to wear is far more important than what you say or who you are?, another good lesson to teach your kids.
| Quote: |
I object to having to share public transport/whatever with somebody I cannot see. If they were to remove their shroud I wouldn't care a bit; it's not an islam thing, or a woman thing - I'd hold the same opinion of middle-aged men dressed in sheets. |
Sorry but where do you live?
you said it was somewhere where there were no or very few ethnic minorities, so let me clarify, you as biker in the sticks (an assumption) object to taking public transport (which you must do often, i mean who would want to ride when theres the bus/train...) with people dressed in sheets?, Again i think you need to re-adress your priorities mate.
| Quote: |
Another thing that bothers me is its arbitrary nature.
We allow this thing to happen and yet what sort of reception do you think I would receive if I walked into a petrol station with a balaclava on? |
Your comparison lacks any kind of context, A (for the sake of argument, as we all know there are alot of other "people" walking round in sheets) Muslim woman in a viel has made a conscious effort to wear her veil throughout the day before she arrives at said petrol station, whereas some random person walking into a petrol station wearing a balaclava suggests something else. (if we are talking about bikers here either leave your lid and balaclava on or take them both off...)
| Quote: | If you want to be served, given service, be employed, etc. then I think you should have to show your face. It's nothing to do with being muslim - something I wish these 'islamic brothers' would realise - but to do with showing people who you are. |
So you agree with petrol stations ordering us to take off our lids before or when we pay?, by that logic to get served we must also show our faces... Because it has nothing to do with muslims does it?, it is the principle of the matter 
I agree if the job is one that requires the veil not to be worn then muslim woman (who wont remove the veil) need not apply, i dont really think that teaching assistant is one of them, i have no idea but i would hazard a guess that there would be a number of muslim kids at that school.. and even for the non-muslims it would at least broarden their horizons, oops there i go with the hippy shit again, thats not why they are at school, gotta pass them exams right? 
It is strange she dident apply to a muslim school though... ehh people are strange..
| Quote: | Terrorism has been a big deal in the papers for years; they've just switched from the IRA to Al-Qaida now.
This irrational and unfortunately incredibly fashionable talk of 'civil liberties' never ceases to astound me. I would worry about the people who come out with this sort of thing turning their children into paranoid obsessives who believe everybody is out to get them. |
Yes it has, but only now do we "feel" the impact of it, 20/30 years ago the media had no where near as much impact on our lives, especially with internet and 24 hour news. When the IRA were bombing london, we did not impliment arrest and detention without charge, but to name one of the countless other freedoms which have been taken from us.
You seem to have missed my point regarding terrorism, yes it is a threat, but that threat has been grossly exaggerated and enhanced by the global images of 9/11, London bombings etc and the constant saturation of all things scary that terrorism poses to us. Which conveniently leads us to believe we need draconian laws in order to combat this perceived threat.
P.S. I like your writing style. Are you a Daily Mail reader by any chance? |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 13:33 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| pwntifex wrote: | Also, if you were to hold your hand in front of your face when in conversation with me, I would consider you extremely rude. The same applies. |
| TheDonUK wrote: | I disagree the two are nothing alike, holding your hand in someones face is an invasion of their personal space, a veil is what it is. |
Perhaps reading my post would be a good idea. You seem to have missed something there, which I have helpfully highlighted for you.
| TheDonUK wrote: | Then i suppose what makes us human is completely aesthetic, and what you choose to wear is far more important than what you say or who you are?, another good lesson to teach your kids. |
You are simplifying things. The veil is not a fashion statement, it is not worn because it looks nice or because it pleases the person. It is worn to hide women from the gaze of men other than their husbands. Its purpose is to hide the person from view. If you can't see the dehumanising aspect of that, then god save us.
| TheDonUK wrote: |
Sorry but where do you live?
you said it was somewhere where there were no or very few ethnic minorities, so let me clarify, you as biker in the sticks (an assumption) object to taking public transport (which you must do often, i mean who would want to ride when theres the bus/train...) with people dressed in sheets?, Again i think you need to re-adress your priorities mate. |
I live in a small town in Lincolnshire, and use public transport every day, mainly to avoid a long commute on roads that are covered in gravel, mud and full of old and incompetent drivers, as well as having the luxury of being able to have an extra hour's kip on the way there. I am usually up in Leeds at the weekends, where I also use public transport out of necessity.
I fail to see how priorities come into this, considering I never made a comparison between that and any other objections I may harbour.
| TheDonUK wrote: | Your comparison lacks any kind of context, A (for the sake of argument, as we all know there are alot of other "people" walking round in sheets) Muslim woman in a viel has made a conscious effort to wear her veil throughout the day before she arrives at said petrol station, whereas some random person walking into a petrol station wearing a balaclava suggests something else. (if we are talking about bikers here either leave your lid and balaclava on or take them both off...) |
Nevertheless, the concept is the same. Both the Burqa and the balaclava have the sole purpose of hiding from view the distinctive features of the person beneath.
However, you are attaching context to but one of your points. I could quite easily wear a balaclava for a day. How often do you think I would be refused service, regardless of how long I've been wearing it? (What does this matter to the shopkeeper/whatever, anyway?)
| TheDonUK wrote: | So you agree with petrol stations ordering us to take off our lids before or when we pay?, by that logic to get served we must also show our faces... Because it has nothing to do with muslims does it?, it is the principle of the matter |
Yep, I think it's perfectly fair. I've never had a problem with removing my lid to fill up. But again, you're making a ridiculous comparison: we wear our helmets to stop or minimise cerebral injury when we crash. Muslim women do not wear veils for this reason, nor do they wear them for any reason that can be justified in a modern, European country.
| TheDonUK wrote: | I agree if the job is one that requires the veil not to be worn then muslim woman (who wont remove the veil) need not apply, i dont really think that teaching assistant is one of them, i have no idea but i would hazard a guess that there would be a number of muslim kids at that school.. and even for the non-muslims it would at least broarden their horizons, oops there i go with the hippy shit again, thats not why they are at school, gotta pass them exams right? |
I think a teaching assistant is probably one of the most prime examples of a post in which the veil must be removed to adequately communicate. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but communication is actually largely facial and bodily. If you cover both, you are no longer able to effectively communicate.
For all your postulating, I don't believe the idea that women are lesser and cannot be trusted around other men - and thus must be covered, for they would be unable to refuse the advances of another man otherwise - is a particularly good message to put across to our kids, do you?
Until there's a change in society in general, the majority of schools will focus on exam results and league tables rather than the welfare and education of their children. Likewise, employers and universities will focus on your results. It's sad, but it's a fact, unfortunately.
| TheDonUK wrote: | Yes it has, but only now do we "feel" the impact of it, 20/30 years ago the media had no where near as much impact on our lives, especially with internet and 24 hour news. When the IRA were bombing london, we did not impliment arrest and detention without charge, but to name one of the countless other freedoms which have been taken from us. |
May I draw your attention to the 1974 Prevention of Terrorism act, and the thousands of people arrested under it during the troubles. I quote: "A study released in 1996 showed that about 6500 people in England, Scotland and Wales had been arrested under the PTA, with many thousands more questioned and detained. Of those arrested under the PTA, 97 percent were Irish. Despite the arrests, less than three percent were finally charged."
| TheDonUK wrote: | You seem to have missed my point regarding terrorism, yes it is a threat, but that threat has been grossly exaggerated and enhanced by the global images of 9/11, London bombings etc and the constant saturation of all things scary that terrorism poses to us. Which conveniently leads us to believe we need draconian laws in order to combat this perceived threat. |
I fail to see how you can see new legislature as "draconian" and fail to see the very same thing inherent in the purpose of Burqa.
| TheDonUK wrote: | P.S. I like your writing style. Are you a Daily Mail reader by any chance? |
Oh, grow up. The very mark of unintelligence is to rely on insults in order to strengthen your point during conversation/debate.
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TheDonUK
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| Posted: 16:46 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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If got work in 5 minutes so i will make this quick,
| Quote: | Perhaps reading my post would be a good idea. You seem to have missed something there, which I have helpfully highlighted for you. |
So i did, thanks for pointing that out to me.
| Quote: | You are simplifying things. The veil is not a fashion statement, it is not worn because it looks nice or because it pleases the person. It is worn to hide women from the gaze of men other than their husbands. Its purpose is to hide the person from view. If you can't see the dehumanising aspect of that, then god save us. |
No, you are overcomplicating things using whatever you think "humanises us", did you ever think that if wearing a veil, burqua, hijab, whatever makes a muslim woman feel as if she is serving her god in some way by not drawing the attention of other men she has a right to do that?
I think the whole idea of religion is absurd but there seem to be alot of right wingers here with the BNP attitude on forigners so i feel the need to play devils advocate...
| Quote: |
I live in a small town in Lincolnshire, and use public transport every day, mainly to avoid a long commute on roads that are covered in gravel, mud and full of old and incompetent drivers, as well as having the luxury of being able to have an extra hour's kip on the way there. I am usually up in Leeds at the weekends, where I also use public transport out of necessity.
I fail to see how priorities come into this, considering I never made a comparison between that and any other objections I may harbour. |
Ever ridden in london mate? try oil and diesel instead of gravel and mud and white van man, taxi drivers, minicabs, buses, mondeo man etc etc.... doesent stop the thousand of other bikers commuting or riding for pleasure... but as you say it has nothing to do with this argument, i only brought it up because it seemed strange that you said you lived in a white area but then complained about all the people in sheets on public transport.
| Quote: | Nevertheless, the concept is the same. Both the Burqa and the balaclava have the sole purpose of hiding from view the distinctive features of the person beneath.
However, you are attaching context to but one of your points. I could quite easily wear a balaclava for a day. How often do you think I would be refused service, regardless of how long I've been wearing it? (What does this matter to the shopkeeper/whatever, anyway?) |
I disagree, i wear my balaclava to keep me warm in the winter and my lid sweat free in the summer, it has nothing to do with covering my face up. Again have done a bit of dispatch riding wearing a dispatch uniform i have walked into numerous shops and been served, The concept is not the same.
| Quote: |
Yep, I think it's perfectly fair. I've never had a problem with removing my lid to fill up. But again, you're making a ridiculous comparison: we wear our helmets to stop or minimise cerebral injury when we crash. Muslim women do not wear veils for this reason, nor do they wear them for any reason that can be justified in a modern, European country. |
I think that says alot, you are happy for a petrol station to generalise all bikers as theifs and as such require them to remove their helmets, all the while chavs in caps and hoods fill up their 30 litre tanks.... Not much of a jump to generalise all muslims as terrorists from that kinda thinking.
| Quote: | I think a teaching assistant is probably one of the most prime examples of a post in which the veil must be removed to adequately communicate. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but communication is actually largely facial and bodily. If you cover both, you are no longer able to effectively communicate.
For all your postulating, I don't believe the idea that women are lesser and cannot be trusted around other men - and thus must be covered, for they would be unable to refuse the advances of another man otherwise - is a particularly good message to put across to our kids, do you?
Until there's a change in society in general, the majority of schools will focus on exam results and league tables rather than the welfare and education of their children. Likewise, employers and universities will focus on your results. It's sad, but it's a fact, unfortunately. |
No i do not believe women are lesser and cannot be trusted around other men, but if they want to wear something like a veil who am i or you to tell them otherwise?
The education system is a different argument.. no time for that now...
| Quote: | I fail to see how you can see new legislature as "draconian" and fail to see the very same thing inherent in the purpose of Burqa. |
Well i see it as draconian because new legislature applies to EVERYONE regardless if they agree or believe in it, whereas wearing a burqa is a choice (one could argue not much of a choice, but thats a social and family problem)
| Quote: | Oh, grow up. The very mark of unintelligence is to rely on insults in order to strengthen your point during conversation/debate. |
Sorry if that offended you, i do like your writing style it comes in nice quotable sections i can adress 1 by 1, that was a compliment, From your attitude i guessed you may be a daily mail reader, i will remember not to jibe with you in the future, we will keep it strictly debate  ... |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 18:03 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| TheDonUK wrote: | No, you are overcomplicating things using whatever you think "humanises us", did you ever think that if wearing a veil, burqua, hijab, whatever makes a muslim woman feel as if she is serving her god in some way by not drawing the attention of other men she has a right to do that? |
I wish it were as clear cut as that. Plenty of stuff responds to this below.
Anyway, if you do not believe that facial and bodily language is what we use primarily in conversation, try having a chat with your mate through a door - or even better, converse with a stranger in the same way. You will find that the conversation feels detached and incomplete; now combine this with the scary image of the veil (which, incidentally, has nothing to do with middle-eastern terrorism; two eyes staring out of a black sheet is an undeniably unsettling image due to the inhumanity of it - there is nothing there that we can recognise as being human).
| TheDonUK wrote: | I think the whole idea of religion is absurd but there seem to be alot of right wingers here with the BNP attitude on forigners so i feel the need to play devils advocate... |
I agree - some of the opinions on here are at once both worrying and sickening.
However I have already stated that I have no inherent problem with muslims (I have discussed matters such as this at length with my few muslim friends - interestingly one of them, a mixed-race Malaysian/British guy, does not believe in the veil either and sees it as a medieval remnant) or indeed anybody of any religion/nationality. With an upbringing as cosmopolitan as mine, it would prove rather difficult to harbour many racist ideals.
| TheDonUK wrote: |
Ever ridden in london mate? try oil and diesel instead of gravel and mud and white van man, taxi drivers, minicabs, buses, mondeo man etc etc.... doesent stop the thousand of other bikers commuting or riding for pleasure... but as you say it has nothing to do with this argument, i only brought it up because it seemed strange that you said you lived in a white area but then complained about all the people in sheets on public transport. |
Haven't, no, but I have in Leeds. I must say I preferred it to country riding as I found that most 'incidents' happened at relatively slow speeds and there were plenty of people around. When I had my accident, I was waiting around for ten minutes before somebody drove past, I couldn't pull the bike out of the ditch and I came to a halt outside a very dodgy-looking caravan/house thing with a big snarling dog behind the gate. Much scarier to be going 60+ and hit some farm debris, careen into a tree and not be found for an hour, in my opinion. I also get free bus travel, but that's neither here nor there.
As far as the 'sheets' thing goes, I'm in Leeds a lot, and there are plenty of women in Burqa who use the buses. But the reference to 'sheets' was a completely different point (I can't be bothered to go back over it now).
| TheDonUK wrote: | I disagree, i wear my balaclava to keep me warm in the winter and my lid sweat free in the summer, it has nothing to do with covering my face up. Again have done a bit of dispatch riding wearing a dispatch uniform i have walked into numerous shops and been served, The concept is not the same. |
We're not talking about biker vs burqa here, though; we're talking about average joe on the street, walking through town (i.e. not wearing a leather jacket, boots, gloves, and holding a helmet - just normal clothing and a balaclava), not making special exemptions.
Let's not forget connotations here; OK, if I walk into a shop with a balaclava on and I'm wearing all my bike gear, not many people will bat an eyelid. However, were I to come in with camouflage on and a balaclava, many more people would.
Same goes for the burqa - what do you think would be the reaction if you saw a woman in a bright pink one?
| TheDonUK wrote: | I think that says alot, you are happy for a petrol station to generalise all bikers as theifs and as such require them to remove their helmets, all the while chavs in caps and hoods fill up their 30 litre tanks.... Not much of a jump to generalise all muslims as terrorists from that kinda thinking. |
Again, you're adding a motive and expanding the argument; where did hoodies come into it? I'm happy to remove my helmet as long as everybody else removes their hoody/veil/whatever. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a shop to insist that they can see your face regardless of whether you're a biker or a muslim or a chav, for the purposes of practicality and politeness more than anything else. I'd remove my shoes when I entered your house, and by extension I expect people to remove their face-hiding garments when speaking to me (unless, of course, it's highly impractical).
| TheDonUK wrote: | No i do not believe women are lesser and cannot be trusted around other men, but if they want to wear something like a veil who am i or you to tell them otherwise? |
If it were a choice and simply a fashion statement then it would be more excusable, and women would be asked to remove it when buying things/teaching/whatever without recrimination - however, it is a tool of oppression that I do not believe is welcome in a western, European country. Not only does it oppress the women who wear it but also the people who must tolerate it, because to make a comment could quite easily spark a huge scene (don't deny that the race card is never played) and so in our own country we are forced to walk on eggshells. Make no mistake, if it weren't for the religion behind the veil and the volatile situation in the middle east, we'd have banned it already. As a side note, one does wonder why the woman would turn up to an interview for a Church of England school veil-less (even with men on the interview panel), and then start work with the veil on, refusing to remove it. 
| TheDonUK wrote: |
Well i see it as draconian because new legislature applies to EVERYONE regardless if they agree or believe in it, whereas wearing a burqa is a choice (one could argue not much of a choice, but thats a social and family problem) |
While that is true, the idea of having to cover yourself up because you are not trusted around other men is rather draconian, don't you think?
Also, generally within strict muslim families it is the husband who decides whether the wife will wear the veil.
How far can we tolerate intolerance?
| TheDonUK wrote: | Sorry if that offended you, i do like your writing style it comes in nice quotable sections i can adress 1 by 1, that was a compliment, From your attitude i guessed you may be a daily mail reader, i will remember not to jibe with you in the future, we will keep it strictly debate ... |
Oh, alright then. It seems I misunderstood, apologies.
Believe it or not, my outlook is actually further to the left than to the right, but I'm sick to death of all the bullshit that I have to face in my own country.
Oh, and I read the Guardian, primarily.
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| Annabella |
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Annabella
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| Posted: 18:11 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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From a school's point of view many of the children requiring assistance would be struggling. How would this woman be of any assitance to a deaf child who needs to lip read?
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TheDonUK
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| Posted: 22:55 - 15 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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I will kinda adress the whole veil issue in one as we have beat most of this to death now...
Its not really the veil, which i agree is a remnant and actually has nothing to do with islam, it is society (certain muslim societies) that feel the need for it. Its the right for a someone to wear one if they so wish (wish for any reason, be it complete free choice, peer pressured fashion statement or an overbearing husband...)
As for Countryside riding v London riding, Coming upon farm debris is about having good observation and not riding beyond your limits (ie fully committing to that blind corner) whereas in places like london thats not the worry, its that some split second action by a careless or murderous driver can kill you, and you have absolutely no say or control over the matter... i find that much scarier...
As for walking in a shop with normal clothes and a balaclava, yes i would be a bit worried to, i wouldent if it were a biker or a burqa... You are kind of agreeing with my original point here or maybe i am forgetting who said what...
| Quote: | Again, you're adding a motive and expanding the argument; where did hoodies come into it? I'm happy to remove my helmet as long as everybody else removes their hoody/veil/whatever. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a shop to insist that they can see your face regardless of whether you're a biker or a muslim or a chav, for the purposes of practicality and politeness more than anything else. I'd remove my shoes when I entered your house, and by extension I expect people to remove their face-hiding garments when speaking to me (unless, of course, it's highly impractical). |
Not really motive, its just not much of a leap to make when you start generalising one group in society as being "x" to generalise another for being "x"... bikers... muslims... whatever
And yes i am expanding the argument, arguments are expansive by nature, otherwise they would be boring and over very quickly .
For instance today i just ran out of petrol and coasted into the BP on the A40 just past hangar lane, pull up to the pump, take off gloves, flip up my helmet, as im doing this a chavmobile with blacked out windows and a capped and hooded guy get out to fill his car up... Im sitting there on my bike waiting for the pump to turn on, the assistant is motioning for me to do something... im making the "WTF Turn the pump on" gesture long story short when i get to the tills i ask him why he wouldent turn the pump on for that long he said its policy for us to remove our helmets, not only do i know that to be BS because i was in the same garage yesterday wearing a balaclava AND a helmet, no problems but there are no signs... i just vent a little at him and go on my way...
The fact is i was discriminated against because i am a biker, i told him he should be more worried about stolen vans stealing 50+ litres, but the monkeys at the till dont give a fuck...
I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here...
Err... Yes the veil is draconian but you and i do not have to wear it, neither does my girlfriend or mother, nor do many muslim women i know... I will argue for the right of people to wear what they want weather or not i like it or agree with the message it puts out...
I have prolly missed stuff but i am tired from work now and i think we have covered everything, good to have a decent discussion/argument every now and then... |
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The last post was made 19 years, 61 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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