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The veil and the Koran.

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sickpup
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: The veil and the Koran. Reply with quote
3 Translations.

Quote:
WEARING THE VEIL

Sura 33:59

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


So from this we learn that the Koran doesn't say women should wear the veil.
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Surah 24:31 wrote:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.


Also, women are equal in worth to half a man:

The Cow 2:282 wrote:
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...

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sickpup
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thats something I've never seen, thank you. But it doesn't require the veil over the face whch is what the present arguement is about.
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zaknafien




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PostPosted: 15:10 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Surah 24:31 wrote:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.


In simpler terms, keep your breasts covered.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
zaknafien wrote:


In simpler terms, keep your breasts covered.


But not your face.
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The implicity with which something is stated in a holy text is largely unimportant. It is down to interpretation, and this is the way that it was been interpreted long ago; thus it is still with us.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
pwntifex wrote:
The implicity with which something is stated in a holy text is largely unimportant. It is down to interpretation, and this is the way that it was been interpreted long ago; thus it is still with us.


But this contradicts the often used arguement that the Koran says women should be veiled. Therefore any muslim who claims the Koran states that all women should be veiled is lieing and therefore a bad muslim especially considering they are questioning the words of their god as spoken by the prophet Muhammad?
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:

But this contradicts the often used arguement that the Koran says women should be veiled. Therefore any muslim who claims the Koran states that all women should be veiled is lieing and therefore a bad muslim especially considering they are questioning the words of their god as spoken by the prophet Muhammad?

Technically yes, but it's all down to interpretation. The language is vague at best (and don't forget it's been translated twice) - and there are other passages of the Qu'ran such as:

Surah 33:53 wrote:
And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.


which could be misinterpreted as relating to all muslim women.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:

But this contradicts the often used arguement that the Koran says women should be veiled. Therefore any muslim who claims the Koran states that all women should be veiled is lieing and therefore a bad muslim especially considering they are questioning the words of their god as spoken by the prophet Muhammad?


It sure does but many Muslims find the Koran confusing and ahrd to follow such that they read hadiths written by other folks who may or maynot have an agenda,

Theres this bit somewhere (I am not Muslim so do not know the exact bit) which says the hand of a theif shall be marked.

Some guy a few 100 years later read marked as amputated etc,
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bazza
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PostPosted: 19:53 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
pwntifex wrote:
Surah 24:31 wrote:
And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.


...and no jiggling them puppies, neither. Tut Tut
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
So we've now gone from the word of god to a vague interpretation from some bloke in a metaphorical pub. Shocked
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:
So we've now gone from the word of god to a vague interpretation from some bloke in a metaphorical pub. Shocked

Unlike the old testament, the Qu'ran was not (supposedly) written by Allah, but by a scribe who noted down Mohammad's words (as Mohammad was illiterate).
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Muhammads words of his dreams no less.
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 15 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Indeed. Suppose that explains passages like this:

Surah 33:50-51 wrote:

a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame
....
Thou canst defer whom thou wilt of them and receive unto thee whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou desirest of those whom thou hast set aside (temporarily), it is no sin for thee (to receive her again); that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what thou givest them.


Surah 33:30-33 wrote:

O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.
And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give her her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her a rich provision.
O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech and stay in your houses.

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TheDonUK
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PostPosted: 00:23 - 16 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The words in the book are meaningless, strictly running your life to the instruction of (what you believe to be the interpretation) a book says (any book), is a missing out from your own path and following others like sheep, in my opinion.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 01:42 - 16 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
TheDonUK wrote:
The words in the book are meaningless, strictly running your life to the instruction of (what you believe to be the interpretation) a book says (any book), is a missing out from your own path and following others like sheep, in my opinion.


Would you be so kind as to tell that to all devoutly religious people please. Thumbs Up
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colin1
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 17 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
the veil is a fairly modern invention from religious clerics

its an extension of traditional ideas, but its not based on the teachings of mohammed

mohammed married a successful businesswoman who was older than him. a powerful woman. he wasnt into keeping women powerless or out of sight.
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phantomtek
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 17 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:
mohammed married a successful businesswoman who was older than him. a powerful woman. he wasnt into keeping women powerless or out of sight.


Didn't he marry a young girl much younger than him?

Or was it that other one?
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zaknafien




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PostPosted: 23:10 - 17 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
phantomtek wrote:
Didn't he marry a young girl much younger than him?

Or was it that other one?


He married a 6 year old girl and consumated the marriage when she was 9.
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phantomtek
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
zaknafien wrote:
phantomtek wrote:
Didn't he marry a young girl much younger than him?

Or was it that other one?


He married a 6 year old girl and consumated the marriage when she was 9.


As I thought, what a shining example of a 'man' to base a whole religion on, a religion that people maim kill and die for.

I don't think they fully thought it through to be honest.

I'm starting a new religion, it's called Dahmerism and we will all bow to Jeffrey himself as he brings us great joy and spreads peace along the land. Rolling Eyes
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 00:34 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:

the veil is a fairly modern invention from religious clerics

its an extension of traditional ideas, but its not based on the teachings of mohammed



Which is pretty much the point of this post. Religion doesn't require it. Its require by old men who want to keep women hidden away and for some reason there are women who allow it.

colin1 wrote:

mohammed married a successful businesswoman who was older than him. a powerful woman. he wasnt into keeping women powerless or out of sight.


Well that could be argued considering he was a polygamist who didn't like others gazing upon his wives.
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:
the veil is a fairly modern invention from religious clerics

its an extension of traditional ideas, but its not based on the teachings of mohammed

mohammed married a successful businesswoman who was older than him. a powerful woman. he wasnt into keeping women powerless or out of sight.

That seems to contradict Surah 33:32-33:
Quote:
33:32 O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech,
33:33 And stay in your houses.


and Surah 33:53:
Quote:
33:53 And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

As already posted..
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byke95
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
From what I've heard (mostly from the news but also from the few Muslim friends I have) the wearing of the veil has little to do with the Koran and a lot to do with 'personal choice'.

On one side of the argument wearers of the veil believe it to be empowering, and see it as a way of removing themselves from the pressures/eyes of society (by the most part, not allowing men to see them).

However, enter this into a society that believes this to be symbolic of 'having something to hide', anti-social and rude and there's potential for conflict.

The simple truth is that, if you think something is empowering, it is. Likewise, if you believe something to be rude, you find it so. More importantly, telling someone that what they think is wrong will result in them defending that belief. The more you go one way, they naturally 'pull' in the opposite direction. It's the 'law' of conversation.

Ultimately I do not think the issue of the veil is symbolic of a wider problem, I think this is a good example of media amplification. Culturally I feel intimidated/threatened by a veil, but, as with any situation, I will always try and understand the person behind it. Clothing statements based on a belief are nothing new, I've met Goths that are more precious about their clothing than Muslims.
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pwntifex
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
byke95 wrote:
Ultimately I do not think the issue of the veil is symbolic of a wider problem, I think this is a good example of media amplification. Culturally I feel intimidated/threatened by a veil, but, as with any situation, I will always try and understand the person behind it. Clothing statements based on a belief are nothing new, I've met Goths that are more precious about their clothing than Muslims.

Again, you fail to see the veil as anything but a piece of clothing, when instead it is the very mark of a person who is unwilling to integrate into our society. I have argued this to the death, but the veil is oppressive and medieval. These woman who say it is empowering are simply the puppets of their husbands/higher powers. This was proven to great effect by the teaching assistant, who fell to pieces when questioned - she was simply stirring the pot under someone else's orders. The veil is the great tool of extremist Islam, and it is being used as a weapon against the west - it is simply another piece of propaganda, wherein the 'dirty infidels' can be seen to oppress the 'loving, peaceful muslims'.
We are a very tolerant nation, but there is only so far that you can tolerate intolerance.
These people do not want to integrate - they do not want to become 'British muslims'; they do not consider themselves British muslims, but muslims before all else and forever. These people abhor our western values and instead of adapting themselves, wish to adapt our culture to suit them. And our ridiculous level of political correctness makes us ripe for manipulation.
We have banned hoodies from our shopping centres and for all intents and purposes helmeted bikers from our forecourts yet we allow the veil - which does not show any recognisable features whatsoever - to prosper.

Yes, you have the right to freedom of speech. As long as you say it quietly.
And no, for the last damn time, I do not read the Daily fucking Mail.
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zaknafien




Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 18 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
byke95 wrote:
On one side of the argument wearers of the veil believe it to be empowering, and see it as a way of removing themselves from the pressures/eyes of society (by the most part, not allowing men to see them).


The veil was for one purpose and one purpose only, to cover women up while they took a dump out in the fields because of Hazrat Umar's interesting passion for watching mohammed's wives take a dump. Confused

Young women’s assertion ‘I wear hijab because I choose to……I find the experience liberating” is bollocks, It's an affront to the millions of Arab and Iranian women that simply don’t have that freedom of choice, hijab for them is a forced legal requirement.

For Muslim women raised in a free society to go and advocate for veils or hijabs is just a cruel mockery to the sufferings of hundreds and thousands of women who were slashed with razors, had acid thrown in their faces, were killed and imprisoned until the Islamic regime in Iran and other Arab states were able to enforce compulsory veiling and establish their rule.
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