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_Iain_ |
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wr6133 |
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_Iain_ |
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_Iain_ Banned
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Posted: 00:53 - 22 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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No idea, this was box standard with the exception of the transmission speed sensor being disconnected to remove the 30mph electronic limiter. (Will photo this tomorrow)
Hopefully I can get one of the techs to rattle gun the variator apart for me tomorrow at which point I'll investigate/fit the new rollers. ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340 |
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 01:20 - 22 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Are you going for std weight rollers Iain?
I guess the trick race pipe will need some lighter rollers and possibly stiffer clutch springs to get off the line as quick as std?
Your pics of a motorway bridge reminds me of speed testing my Speedfight 100 before and after tuning. I picked a long downhill section of motorway between 2junctions. With everything std except the Malossi Variator I managed to get 58mph down hill, but just 54mph on the flat, using a digital push bike speedo.
All tuned to 11.8bhp r/w, I got 73mph downhill and 68mph on the flat. That was with:
1, Doppler pipe
2, High compression skimmed head& cooler plug BR9EIX
3, lightly ported std barrel
4, Polini oversize reed block and 4petal reedvalve.
5, Dellorto PHBG21 with 102 Main jet and K&N clamp on filter.
6, Malossi Variator& torque spring, lighter rollers, strongest clutch springs available, and swiss cheese drilled clutch shoes to try to get more rpm before engagement.
Huge fail for £700 including dyno set up! |
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_Iain_ |
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:08 - 22 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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yeah, I bet the off the line and first 100m are massively affected by how good the transmission set up is, and also with a pipe etc, how good the jetting/carburation is? If it's stuttery or has a flat spot then that's only going to make it worse.
I have no idea how best to go about tuning the carb and transmission on twist&go's as one thing could affect the other, and you might go round in circles?
My Speedfight had peak power at 7800rpm, but I reckon the clutch was biting before 4000-4500, and with a peaky pipe it probably wanted 5500rpm+ before starting to engage.
On a tuned 50cc, I guess you'd want 6500-7000rpm? before take off as a minimum. Not good for the neighbours early in the morning though! |
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_Iain_ |
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_Iain_ Banned
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Posted: 17:20 - 22 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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It got attacked with tools.
https://i.imgur.com/wp0xHBp.jpg
A restrictor washer was found in the variator & removed, however the rollers and belt seem to be in pretty good shape - no huge flat spots or anything. We also scuffed the clutch bell & shoes up a bit with sandpaper to get rid of the smoothness that would cause clutch slip.
https://i.imgur.com/oFUiuii.jpg
I've not test ridden it yet - gives me something to do this evening!
Boring bit about transmission setup on a twist and go scoot
By removing the washer that goes in the variator it allows the ped to make that front pulley a bit bigger & thus a higher top speed before it maxxes out.
https://www.polini.com/dep/dis_02_03.jpg
https://www.polini.com/dep/dis_04_05.jpg
Pic 3 shows what the bike would have done before removal of the washer, Pic 4 shows what the bike will now hopefully do
The weight of the rollers simply adjusts how quickly the variator moves in and out - lighter rollers take longer to move it to the higher gear, as they get moved outwards by centrifugal force. This means the engine can rev higher before it starts to change up a gear. Try taking your big bike out, and going full throttle, but changing gear at 5k. Then try changing gear at the redline and it becomes very clear why this is a good idea!
As I'm getting more power out of the engine it will make it more peaky, so we need to try and keep the engine in that sweet spot in the rev range where it makes most of its power or else the efforts wasted. Might take a bit of trial & error though!
Lengthy version here: https://www.polini.com/en/page_415.html ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340 |
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speedy |
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speedy Scooby Slapper
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wr6133 |
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wr6133 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 06:53 - 23 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Curiosity again... what top speed you seeing minus the variator washer? On the Chinese GY6 based 4T's it gave about 4 Mph more on the few I've removed them from (my v-clic and a few neighbours assorted Chinese brands), for a top of about 36 Mph.
Are there bore kits available? Best cheap way to more power, mine cost 20 something quid sent from Poland, probably about £40 all in with rollers and larger jets, didn't do a lot for top speed (about 42 Mph..... eventually) but transformed it on hills previously it would drop to about 16 on hills for me now it'll only drop to mid 20's (I'm a little on the heavy side). That's on stock pipe (with a few holes drilled) and filter, people get more changing them out as well on 4T's so I imagine on your 2T you could see some real gains.
Also I think you are lacking monster stickers for genuine pedboi adventuring (each sticker is 0.5 bhp) |
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_Iain_ |
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Posted: 20:18 - 23 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Video of variator; https://youtu.be/L8YST5AHBZo
It now maxes out at 46mph. It's happy to hold that speed though now when the road flattens out, rather than barely nudging it when on a steep downhill - hill climbing power is still the same however the acceleration has improved!
Measured 0-100M, only rollers changed.
https://i.imgur.com/VCbf45D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ua9nVfr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QGHEUGI.jpg
Overall driveability is massively better, but its sacrificed a little hill climbing power. The massive flat spot on pullaway is still there, once its past 10mph it picks up nicely. I've ordered a clutch spring kit & my pipe will hopefully be here tomorrow, the pipe is dyno proven to nearly double power output when jetted correctly & the clutch springs will let me rev it higher before clutch engagement.
Worth noting that at this stage with the 4.7g rollers fitted the variator holds the revs at 6500 on the rev counter. IMO this is far too low based on all the graphs I've seen & I'm going to need to go a lot lighter, as I need it to sit at around 8000-8500rpm to keep it on peak power. ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340
Last edited by _Iain_ on 11:41 - 24 Nov 2014; edited 1 time in total |
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evoboy |
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 23:59 - 23 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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I should of kept the NRG, that did pull wheelies off the throttle for fun.
The standard variator is junk.
Change the exhaust.
Buy a bigger carb.
The Piaggio engine your using the dyno graphs from is an far better base engine to start with so the exhaust graphs from that may not be suitable for the Minarelli copy that is in your scoot. That said, anything is better than the standard crap they come with. Even a cheap Q-tre pipe would give large gains. ____________________ Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600
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_Iain_ |
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evoboy |
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:44 - 24 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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I found most gains from putting a larger carb ( 17.5mm) and an exhaust onto my stock minarelli engine. If you go for 70cc, even just a bad ebay kit, it made it far easier to tune the gearbox as the engine made a winder spread of power.
The variator was always a problem on the Minarelli engine so I cant see it being any better on a copy. When it gets hot, it seems to struggle to shift smoothly giving the impression of flat spots. I changed the one on mine to a cheap ( tunr) copy of a Malossi Multivar which meant using the larger diameter weights. It would hold the revs far more constant than the stock one which is key to getting the best possible acceleration. The stock chinese ramp plates also wear grooves into them from minimal use. I can see yours is also not using the whole variator travel...
What I see most from those dyno graphs is that the more expensive pipes give peak power for almost twice as long as the leo vince pipes, even if it is marginally lower overall output. You will have to be absolutely perfect with the gearbox tune to get it to stay on peak power and if the variator is unable to hold steady, youll drop off the power going up a hill and end up crawling. Same applies if you rev higher than peak power.
Overall power output is useless on a scooter unless you can get the gearbox to hold it at peak all the time. From when you first pull off, uphills, all the way up to when the variator runs out of travel.
Just go 70cc. ____________________ Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 12:38 - 24 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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I presume your keeping an eye on the drive belt, as I dunno on 50cc twist and go's, but a modest 100cc 11bhp machine seemed to chew through belts in no time. Could have been a bad set up as I never had it perfect.
Beware of stiffer or wider Kevlar belts. They IMO are a total waste of time, and stop the variator working correctly and reduce it's range of gearing too. They also sap too much power. Would be fine I guess on a 25bhp+ scooter but not on a lower powered one.
The 0-10mph thing is interesting too, as your having the same issue I had with the Speedfight. I could not get mine to not bog down in the 0-10/15mph area, and that was after professional setting up the Jetting and roller weights on a dyno.
I think rollers have naff all to do with low down bogging and it's all in the clutch springs/set up. The tuner who worked on my scoot said my Doppler pipe was peaky, yet only delivered 0.5bhp more or so than a Giannelli pipe and about the same as the PM tuning pipe.
I would never beat a de-restricted NRG Mc3 up to 40-45mph, but I had maybe 10-12mph more top speed on a good day. The Pug 100cc motors really sucked, and I think the Morini 100cc motor was a lot quicker even though there's no tuning bits for it. I wanted an Italjet Formula 125 and worked out a good deal on one, but everyone at the time said avoid it, as they were too unreliable though fast for a std 125. |
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evoboy |
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 19:55 - 24 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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stevo as b4 wrote: |
I would never beat a de-restricted NRG Mc3 up to 40-45mph, but I had maybe 10-12mph more top speed on a good day. The Pug 100cc motors really sucked, and I think the Morini 100cc motor was a lot quicker even though there's no tuning bits for it. I wanted an Italjet Formula 125 and worked out a good deal on one, but everyone at the time said avoid it, as they were too unreliable though fast for a std 125. |
The Piaggio 50 in AC or LC is a much quicker motor as standard than any of the other makes. It is quicker than the 100cc Aerox/Pug too. Just from taking the washer out and fitting a pipe would see 50mph with ease. The gearbox is much better built, most of them come with a 17.5mm dellorto as standard and the porting in the cylinder is far better finished.
Everytime a Formula 125 pops up I have to stop myself from buying one as you just cant get the bits. But they really do fly for a 125 being 2 engines bolted together.
Quote: | How so? Photo was taken prior to the variator restriction washer being removed, and in the video the throttle was barely blipped - definately not enough to wind the variator all the way out. |
If your still only doing 46mph flat out, which is the same as when it was restricted going downhill, then the belt isnt travelling any higher up the variator pully. The higher the belt travels, the higher top speed you will get. If you take the variator off again it may well have grooves worn into the pully faces where it has been ran restricted for quite a while. That will make it more difficult for the belt to travel up the pully.
Was that washer in the pics over the variator sleeve or was it on the end of it, between the sleeve and front pulley half?
I would just keep a look out on ebay for an exhaust. I never bought one new as kids sell them all the time. Paid £1.20 for a Gianelli, £5.50 for one for my old NEOS and £22 for the PM tuning 360 that was on the NRG 'race ped'. ____________________ Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600
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_Iain_ |
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Posted: 15:08 - 25 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Looks like the transmission guessworks out the window!
https://i.imgur.com/nkMEam5.jpg
Exhaust arrived. In the box was a set of 3.5gr rollers and two sets of clutch springs. The manual doesn't explain what the second set is for, however says in broken english to fit the yellow springs.
It notes that this setup is good for a standard engine. I figure I'll just fit all the supplied parts & put the 4.7g rollers down as a barely useful mod, incompatible with the pipe. With the pipe expected to make peak power at 8-8500rpm and the variator holding at precisely 6500rpm it wasn't going to work out & I had purchased some 4gr rollers to go in instead.
Still, for £2.50 it was worth a punt to see if it made any difference! I've also ordered a 27kg variator spring after seeing this chart;
- Blue: 22 KG Use: original spare until lightly tuned engines
- Yellow: 27 KG Use: mildly tuned motors up to 10 HP
- Red: 32 KG Use: highly tuned engines over 10 hp
£3.50, it's gotta be worth a go as a budget transmission mod. ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340 |
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evoboy |
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:05 - 25 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Just keep all the rollers. You can mix 3 of one weight with 3 of another to fine tune the gearbox before shelling out for yet more rollers. Think i have about 20 sets.
Problem comes when your a heavy git like myself. The setup they give you in the box with the pipe is for a feather weight 16yr old/dyno tune.
Think i ended up using a Pedmoto White spring on a standard engine. If you go for a stiffer spring, you will need heavier rollers else the variator wont be able to overpower the spring. The contrast spring should only really need to go stiffer on a tuned engine where more power is involved and you suffer from belt slip.
A stiffer contrast spring will also rob the engine of power as it takes more effort to compress the rear pulley.
Dont think I'm trying to be negative in anyway. I spent ages messing around with scooters, so I'm just sharing the info! ____________________ Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600
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_Iain_ |
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Posted: 00:02 - 26 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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evoboy wrote: | Dont think I'm trying to be negative in anyway. I spent ages messing around with scooters, so I'm just sharing the info! |
Oh fuck no - It's genuinely helpful information! I'm sort of learning as I go with this one so any experience you can offer would be most helpful!
It now doesn't start. Prior to touching it I span the engine over to get it up the workshop ramp. It coughed, fired for half a second and died. It's not started since! Has spark, has fuel, has fuel reaching the carb, has a wet plug, has a fresh plug & cap. Nowt. Will investigate tomorrow.
Anyway, picture time.
Rollers went in. Red, 3.5gr. Red ones make it go faster
https://i.imgur.com/WrVEcrp.jpg
The heavier clutch springs were also fitted. Turns out Yellow is for a Piaggio engine, Grey is for a Minarelli engine. Pictured is an old one next to a fitted new one.
https://i.imgur.com/7PFhw7O.jpg
The restrictor was removed from the new pipe (wobble with screwdriver & then grind the spot weld flush to get it out & flowing nicely)
https://i.imgur.com/ToIlVLc.jpg
Then came fitting the pipe.
This was a pain in the dick as the pipe isn't for this bike - its a CPI Hussar 50cc exhaust. Same engine, different frame. The Baotian frame puts the centrestand in the way, so this was junked. Still not enough clearance, so out came the grinder.
Before;
https://i.imgur.com/uDGlTzl.jpg
After;
https://i.imgur.com/IylAOUa.jpg
A little touch up with some PJ1 engine case paint;
https://i.imgur.com/vRTdgiy.jpg
And the final fitment (mudguard also had to be junked - looks better imo & I may knock up a tail tidy for it too if I get really bored);
https://i.imgur.com/2smV94U.jpg
I ground quite a bit off because I wanted maximum clearance & no greif with it hitting at a later date when the chinese suspension/bushings fail.
However this is how it currently sits as the transmission cover has to come off to remove the airbox & carburettor which I shall be doing tonight.
https://i.imgur.com/LCuWj9r.jpg ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340
Last edited by _Iain_ on 10:10 - 26 Nov 2014; edited 1 time in total |
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 00:18 - 26 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Sexy Spannie!
Looking forward to seeing the difference your tuning parts make, and the effect on speed/acceleration.
I don't feel half as bad now for wanting to buy/try some different pipes on my KMX now, as some of the gains those 50cc ped pipes are making are bloody good IMO. |
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evoboy |
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:12 - 26 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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A pipe off an aerox or neos may well of fitted better, but hey ho.
When you do go for a 70cc kit, make sure you get a higher revving kit as it will match that pipe just perfect. The Athena HPR kit I had on the NRG was only happy at 11,000rpm
The cheap 70 kits dont seem to like high revs. ( again, after much experiment ) ____________________ Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600
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_Iain_ |
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Posted: 11:58 - 26 Nov 2014 Post subject: |
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Research seems to indicate that the Stage 6 cylinder kits are the ones to go for if you're after a real screamer, look to be on peak by about 7500rpm, but hold near peak right the way through till just over 11,000rpm.
Obviously it's on a different engine - but dyno pulls on a ZX pipe
https://www.pedparts.co.uk/ekmps/shops/thebikeshop/resources/Design/leovince.jpg
The streetrace is also significantly cheaper, £79.99 rather than £133. With this being a bit of a budget build/fuckabout toy I'm tempted to opt for that. The slight sacrifice in peak power is made up with a much better spread of power which I can't help but think will be good to have on the road especially as the variator is likely to be fully compressed by 8k and after that RPM=MPH
https://www.pmtuning.co.uk/stage-6-70cc-streetrace-cylinder-kit-minarelli-ac
My only concern is at that point I'm taking a chinese crankshaft & rod, putting three times the power it was designed to take on it & then revving it around 4k higher. This engine has likely only got a 10mm gudgeon pin too, and I've seen Firefoxes with the same motor shit small end bearings when ragged flat out downhill for extended amounts of time & I barely scraped 10k when I maxxed at 46mph ____________________ Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340 |
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UnspeedySam World Chat Champion
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evoboy World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 9 years, 198 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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