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I do not care. |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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slowasyoulike Scooby Slapper
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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slowasyoulike Scooby Slapper
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Posted: 00:38 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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chester240 wrote: | Have you ever riden a bike with cruise control. A proper one.
And I developed the cc because I get horrible upper back pains... |
Nope. I have a middle-sized van and a large camper that have cruise control and I tried both for about 5 minutes, because the reality of it is that the roads are so crowded nowadays that you end up knocking it off seconds after engaging it. It's useless.
I have a bad back too, which is why I ride an old V-twin with an upright riding position. I have, in the past, done 500 miles in a day on it without the help of cruise control. Obviously I can't cruise at 150mph, but that's not something I care about.
I don't get your logic regarding the safety of this device, either: "Bikes are dangerous, so what's one more risk?". I accept the danger that comes with riding, but being middle-aged and not especially hot-headed I do my best to mitigate that risk. Sticking a dev board-based cruise control on my mechanical throttle bike defo won't make it any safer, so there's 0% chance I'm going to do it.
Fair play to you for developing this and getting it to a state where it works, but I suspect that ultimately the main user will be you. |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 00:51 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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As someone who has had a throttle jam open on a bike which had no kill swith and as it turns out, an ignition key that was unreachable when riding flat out, I can say I wouldn't fancy fitting your device to a bike.
I had two things in my favour. One is I was on a long straight and had just enough time to think about what to do (2 options, pull the clutch and blow the engine or try to stop it on the brakes). The second is it was a sub 50bhp 2-stroke and the brakes did actually stop it, but not until I was DEEP into the bend at the end of the straight and actually halfway into a farmyard at the end of it.
I got very lucky. And that was a failure in the direct and standard mechanical throttle cable which fell down onto the head and melted the outer. I wouldn't be comfortable adding more complexity to said device. The thing about throttle cables is they generally fail safe and close the throttle. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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rpsmith79 |
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rpsmith79 World Chat Champion
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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rpsmith79 |
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rpsmith79 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:19 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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chester240 wrote: |
Obviously with so closed minded people any innovation or progress is impaired. But if it was done by Rosta(odtąd use only) or Mccruise which costs 1000 usd still isn’t road legal you wouldn’t have such reservations. Bah. If it was made by apple you would stay in lines threw the night just to by it. The only difference is marketing and the amount of money thrown in to it. And not the actual design and functionality. Better would be for people tho don’t llike it or thing is a mass murder device, to keep this uneducated opinion to themselfs. I would rather hear an opinion of a person who has any experience in designing such devices then haters.
You guys are like a mob from Monty python.
https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?si=A8XLXRbRCA0XaQGf |
No, no, no
That is the point, we don't care who makes it, or who markets it, we don't fucking want/need it
Neither do i want a motorcycle with 6 axis ABS, traction control, wheelie control, 15 rider modes, linked brakes, cruise control or any other namby pamby nonsense
I'll stick with my non ABS, throttle by cable Street Triple R thanks, my right hand is my traction/cruise control, and thats the way i like it ____________________ Current Bike: Honda CG125 ES4 // Honda CB600FS Hornet // Triumph Street Triple R |
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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Posted: 10:46 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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rpsmith79 wrote: | chester240 wrote: |
Obviously with so closed minded people any innovation or progress is impaired. But if it was done by Rosta(odtąd use only) or Mccruise which costs 1000 usd still isn’t road legal you wouldn’t have such reservations. Bah. If it was made by apple you would stay in lines threw the night just to by it. The only difference is marketing and the amount of money thrown in to it. And not the actual design and functionality. Better would be for people tho don’t llike it or thing is a mass murder device, to keep this uneducated opinion to themselfs. I would rather hear an opinion of a person who has any experience in designing such devices then haters.
You guys are like a mob from Monty python.
https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?si=A8XLXRbRCA0XaQGf |
No, no, no
That is the point, we don't care who makes it, or who markets it, we don't fucking want/need it
Neither do i want a motorcycle with 6 axis ABS, traction control, wheelie control, 15 rider modes, linked brakes, cruise control or any other namby pamby nonsense
I'll stick with my non ABS, throttle by cable Street Triple R thanks, my right hand is my traction/cruise control, and thats the way i like it |
Since you are riding street triple this device is probably not for you. You probably have never been on a two weeks long motorcycle journey. This is not for everybody. Not for guys with sport bikes that usually go around the nearest chimney. Or commuters who use their bikes just to go to wark and back. It is for people want on do go far. Not Sunday drivers. ____________________ Nobody. |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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Posted: 12:17 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Well this is all very fighty.
BCF is not representative of all bikers everywhere, it trends towards grumpy British one who don't like change. So cruise control as a concept is unlikely to be popular here.
There may be a market for it - people who do serious distance and want to spend money on toys to make it easier. I would assume that those same people are on fairly expensive bikes, and well insured. I can't speak for the entire world, but UK insurance asks the question "are there any modifications". If you say yes, I have fitted homebrew cruise control, you will not be getting insurance. Well you might, but the price will be stupidly high.
To get around this problem, the product would have to be tested and certified by an organisation that a lot of countries trust. TuV would be a good bet.
On the subject of risk, it is true that people take risks every day. People are not rational about this, but that isn't going to change. To demonstrate how this is irrational, I would ride a bike where I had rebuilt the carb and was unsure if I had got the throttle return setup on there properly. The throttle may jam open, but it's my repair, my bike, my risk. I wouldn't fit someone else's black box that could jam the throttle open. Or I might to try it out, but I would never trust the bike. I would ride like something is about to brake, hand always hovering over the clutch and brake.
Another way of looking at it - and I like pointless toys on my vehicles. If I was looking to buy a brand new bike for £10k, and I could have factory fitted cruise control for an extra £200, I wouldn't choose it.
Taking this to market isn't worth it. You won't get enough sales at the right price to cover the cost of development, certification and manufacture. |
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Freddyfruitba... |
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Freddyfruitba... World Chat Champion
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I do not care. |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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Posted: 13:50 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: | Well this is all very fighty.
BCF is not representative of all bikers everywhere, it trends towards grumpy British one who don't like change. So cruise control as a concept is unlikely to be popular here.
There may be a market for it - people who do serious distance and want to spend money on toys to make it easier. I would assume that those same people are on fairly expensive bikes, and well insured. I can't speak for the entire world, but UK insurance asks the question "are there any modifications". If you say yes, I have fitted homebrew cruise control, you will not be getting insurance. Well you might, but the price will be stupidly high.
To get around this problem, the product would have to be tested and certified by an organisation that a lot of countries trust. TuV would be a good bet.
On the subject of risk, it is true that people take risks every day. People are not rational about this, but that isn't going to change. To demonstrate how this is irrational, I would ride a bike where I had rebuilt the carb and was unsure if I had got the throttle return setup on there properly. The throttle may jam open, but it's my repair, my bike, my risk. I wouldn't fit someone else's black box that could jam the throttle open. Or I might to try it out, but I would never trust the bike. I would ride like something is about to brake, hand always hovering over the clutch and brake.
Another way of looking at it - and I like pointless toys on my vehicles. If I was looking to buy a brand new bike for £10k, and I could have factory fitted cruise control for an extra £200, I wouldn't choose it.
Taking this to market isn't worth it. You won't get enough sales at the right price to cover the cost of development, certification and manufacture. |
Finally a constructive response.
Just a question this insurance you all talk about. Is it to cover damages to other vehicles or to yours.
And towards rationality, many people have aftermarket CC in cars when there is no return linkege and no one makes a fuzz about it but when it comes to bikes suddenly thats blasphemy. I constantly have to deal with fuckups designed by professionals. But when they do it it is ok. No one makes a noise when an abs unit goes bad in a v-rod and suddenly you have no front brakes. But hey it was done by professionals. It mast be some one elses foult.
And when it comes to certifying the device. I would never do it even if I had the money. First of all like you said the sales would not cover the expenses and second I would have to deal with all dose dumb people who hurt themself because of their stupidity but would like to blame others then themselfs.
And you don’t need an expensive bike to make long trips. All you need is will to do it. If I had the money I would not bother to design it. I would by bmw gs1200. But for a price of a used and beet up gs I got a brand new vstrom. So there is always a trade of. If I knew how much I need it I would probably wait for a tracer gt wich had the same price as vstrom. ____________________ Nobody.
Last edited by I do not care. on 14:51 - 14 Mar 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
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Freddyfruitba... |
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Freddyfruitba... World Chat Champion
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Bhud |
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Bhud World Chat Champion
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Posted: 16:28 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Reliability and safety, against the claimed additional utility in specific circumstances (long highway rides) offered by a cruise control system.
I had a look at MCCruise. I note that they have installation instructions in a Google Drive folder, but I was unable to look at them because permissions are not set to public. Are these instructions beyond the normal scope of assembly competence of a normal person who can put together a gaming chair? Probably.
If you buy a set of drawers from IKEA, it will come with installation instructions that anyone can follow. If something goes wrong and the drawers collapse, IKEA probably won't argue the toss because the liability would be just for the set of drawers.
A system on a motorcycle is unlike a piece of self-assembly furniture. If something goes wrong it can be catastrophic, and cause permanent injury or death. Therefore, if it has a big, compliant company behind it, such as BMW, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, etc. it will be more widely trusted. If something goes wrong and the customer loses control over the throttle where MCCruise has been fitted, who is responsible? BMW, Kawasaki, etc. will say no, it's not us because you fucked with the bike's throttle. If you got a local garage to fit the MCCruise, they will deny liability as well, and point at MCCruise. It's then their insurer vs MCCruise. A world of hassle, and the main obstacle would be proving that the CC system or incorrect installation was to blame in the first place.
OK, you say you're willing to run this risk because riding a motorcycle is risky. But you've just added 3rd party risk and made fault an even more complicated problem than it would have been without the device.
I would say, for most people, if they plan to take a 2-week tour by motorcycle, they would buy a motorcycle suitable for the task. Something different from what they ride for a blast around the local chimney and back home again. It might have cruise control on it. A bike that does it all is a bit of a unicorn, and unicorns don't exist, right? I like project bikes, but I would never dream of taking a project bike on such a journey. Reliability is an issue with project bikes, and if you're putting this on a 2014 bike then you've taken a bike that's practically new and unsullied, and turned it into a project bike. This introduces uncertainty as to reliability. |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Posted: 16:32 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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chester240 wrote: | It’s not the posture. It’s the constant muscle tension in the arm to maintain constant speed. I checked many bikes and it happens on every one. The problem is me not the bikes. And CC solved the problem. |
At least you're decent enough to come out with "it's not you, it's me"
I've ridden bikes with single cable, dual cable and fly-by-wire and there's a fair variation in how much effort required to twist the throttle. For the latter two you could consider, if it's at all practical, swapping in a lighter spring. Dual cable that'll be on the carb/throttle-body and fly-by-wire in the actual throttle (although I doubt this one would be an easy swap.)
There's also thumb-style throttles - quads sometimes use them - which would obviously require entirely different muscles to operate. Worth a try?
Just out of curiosity, what are you like with urban stop-start journeys; do you experience a similar problem working the clutch? ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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I do not care. |
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I do not care. Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 12 Mar 2024 Karma :
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Posted: 18:50 - 14 Mar 2024 Post subject: |
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Freddyfruitbat wrote: |
I don't know anything about McCruise, and in practice the high price would certainly put me off (ie, so I'd spend the money on a bike with cruise control already fitted). But even without that issue, and after having fully researched it, I'd still be pretty reluctant to trust it I think. Though I admit it wouldn't instantly be a 'hard no' (© Nobby), as I'm afraid it would with yours. |
So prejudice.
Bhud wrote: | Reliability and safety, against the claimed additional utility in specific circumstances (long highway rides) offered by a cruise control system.
I had a look at MCCruise. I note that they have installation instructions in a Google Drive folder, but I was unable to look at them because permissions are not set to public. Are these instructions beyond the normal scope of assembly competence of a normal person who can put together a gaming chair? Probably.
If you buy a set of drawers from IKEA, it will come with installation instructions that anyone can follow. If something goes wrong and the drawers collapse, IKEA probably won't argue the toss because the liability would be just for the set of drawers.
A system on a motorcycle is unlike a piece of self-assembly furniture. If something goes wrong it can be catastrophic, and cause permanent injury or death. Therefore, if it has a big, compliant company behind it, such as BMW, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, etc. it will be more widely trusted. If something goes wrong and the customer loses control over the throttle where MCCruise has been fitted, who is responsible? BMW, Kawasaki, etc. will say no, it's not us because you fucked with the bike's throttle. If you got a local garage to fit the MCCruise, they will deny liability as well, and point at MCCruise. It's then their insurer vs MCCruise. A world of hassle, and the main obstacle would be proving that the CC system or incorrect installation was to blame in the first place.
OK, you say you're willing to run this risk because riding a motorcycle is risky. But you've just added 3rd party risk and made fault an even more complicated problem than it would have been without the device.
I would say, for most people, if they plan to take a 2-week tour by motorcycle, they would buy a motorcycle suitable for the task. Something different from what they ride for a blast around the local chimney and back home again. It might have cruise control on it. A bike that does it all is a bit of a unicorn, and unicorns don't exist, right? I like project bikes, but I would never dream of taking a project bike on such a journey. Reliability is an issue with project bikes, and if you're putting this on a 2014 bike then you've taken a bike that's practically new and unsullied, and turned it into a project bike. This introduces uncertainty as to reliability. |
So most people, if you count reliability in to it, can not afford do buy a bike like you said. A two week trip would cost around 3000 bucks including fuel, food and sleeping in a tent. When you have a bike that cost 3000$ you can not afford a 15-30K one. Most of the bikes are in the lower range. Only a chosen few can afford GS,KTM or Ducatti. But let say some of the poorer part of the society chosen to by a second hand multistrada, or GS. There is a 35-50% chance that they will visit a workshop for a major repair that would cost more then the trip. I wouldn't take that kind of bike with me.. On my first trip i went with 3 other guys, GSXR, FZ6 and bmw K1300. And guess what, bmw went back from Croatia to Poland on a trailer. It was the newest bike from the four of us. I at that time was riding an FZS1000. So when it comes to money and reliability used bikes from Japan are the choice. And they don't have any additional cool features like cruise control.
And as to making my bike less reliable. All changes are reversible even on a road. No OEM part was removed or altered. Couple hexs wrenches and 2x10mm spanner is all that's needed. And since i designed the device i know perfectly well what can go wrong and implemented the necessary safety features. I'm not an Idiot as some of you might think. 30K km with no problem in all weather conditions ,but i know it will not impress anybody.
Quote: | Just out of curiosity, what are you like with urban stop-start journeys; do you experience a similar problem working the clutch? |
No problems, the clutch side is perfect. Like i said constant muscle tension in the right arm causes the pain in the back of the right shoulder. I also have scoliosis, so I'm sure that does not help.
Quote: | On the certification point and liability - if you sell this and it causes someone to have a crash, you are still liable and they (or their insurance company) are likely to come after you. Certification would be a requirement for you to hold business insurance to protect yourself against these claims. |
Since i don't install the device, I bear no responsibility for the user. And the user is perfectly aware that the CC is for offroad use only.
That's how all the throttle locks work. You can buy them everywhere, even in UK, and I have not seen a certified one yet. I'm pretty sure none of the thousands of users cared to tell the insurance company that they have an illegal device installed on their throttle.
And another example. In certain models of Mercedes cars there is a counter in the ABS ecu. If you exceed this counter the brakes no longer works. I don't know the exact number but it is in the tens of
thousands or even hundred thousands. When the car goes in the authorized service it is reseted at every visit. If you chose to do the brake change yourself or in another service that do not know about it you in deep shit. You will not have the problem right away. It will take couple brake pad changes before the counter reaches limit. You could try to sue the them, but it turns out there is an information about it in the owners manual written in small letters.
Who the hell reads the whole owners manual for a car. ____________________ Nobody. |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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