Why are there no bikes suitable for newer riders after 125s?

[St0rmer66]

Assuming a person is not rich and therefore doesn't want to get shafted by the insurance companies, why is there so little choice after the 125cc stage?

Looking around at the moment, I'm 18 with 1year NCB coming up, basically the only choice I have is a GS500 or ER-5 (CB500 if I want to pay a bit more) and neither bike is particularly what I would ideally go for. I did look into a VFR400 for a more sporty looking bike but the only ones I can find have 20k+miles on them and still cost just as much, plus they have the horrible "blocky" back end which I don't particularly like. Why did they stop making new 400cc or similar bikes? And why don't they make any bike with 33bhp at stock? Surely it would make sense and a lot of people would buy them?

Kind of a bad time to be at as a biker .
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:: Honda XR 125 L ('53) => Kawasaki GPZ 500S ('02) => Suzuki SV650S ('00) => Aprilia RSV-R ('51) ::

[JonT]

As a newer (and young) rider you are considered to be a higher risk by the insurance companies.

Seperately the bikes people tend to be after are high performance sports bikes which the insurance companies also factor in as being a higher risk.

Therefore on a budget you have just two choices for having a bike as far as I can see.

Keep a small bike and earn up some NCB to counter the first point, or get a lower performance bike such as the GS500 you mentioned (which I think you will find is more then adequate) whilst allowing you to earn the NCB.

Doing things gradually also means you have more times you can upgrade to something better Which is always nice isn't it :p

[St0rmer66]

Thing is, if I could get something that looks like a sports 600cc (or 1000cc) but was 33bhp stock I would be perfectly happy! The GS500 and ER-5 are easily going to be fast enough for me for a while (even at 33bhp) but they just don't look very nice! (having my dads ZX-9R sat in the garage next to my bike makes me jealous! ). What can I say? I'm a tart...

Also, I would rather have something with a fairing for motorways etc (even the -indicated- 70mph on my bike with no fairing is bad enough!).
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:: Honda XR 125 L ('53) => Kawasaki GPZ 500S ('02) => Suzuki SV650S ('00) => Aprilia RSV-R ('51) ::

[JonT]

A lot of people tend to go for a sports 400 and get a restrictor kit for the very same reasons you described.

I went for an SV650 which is kind of the middle road, cheap on insurance, not as pretty as a full faired bike but looks good enough for me and has enough go.

At age 20 with 1 Year NCB I am paying £400 TPFT in a cat F region.

[St0rmer66]

I quite like the SV650 actually but the problem with those is the initial cost of the bike along with the insurance being a fair bit.. (but I've only been using online quotes so I guess it might not be too bad afterall...). I would love something with a full fairing, theres just nothing out there though!

VFR400 was very tempting until I saw the front of it. The blocky rear end I could have dealt with but those headlights are something else...
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:: Honda XR 125 L ('53) => Kawasaki GPZ 500S ('02) => Suzuki SV650S ('00) => Aprilia RSV-R ('51) ::

[Rookie]

I agree with you to an extent, even if I didn't and won't do the same thing. Once you've passed your test there is very few options for a good looking, small capacity, low insurance group and low power bike.

You've got the 2 stroke 250s. These are highly tuned machines which require a horrific amount of maintenance, and are almost totally useless to have to ride on a regular basis unless you've got very deep pockets. No good for a low income, just passed student. Plus they are mental machines which means they're often crashed, which makes them a high insurance group. No good again.

There's the 4 stroke 500s, but every 500 on the market isn't 'sporty' like the RS, Mito and CBR. They don't have the right looks basically, they portray the wrong image for a just-passed rider. Plus they're slightly overpowered (45-70bhp standard) so they have to be restricted anyway legally.

Then you've got the 4 stroke sports 400s. They're just about right except again they're overpowered (60+bhp stock IL4) and they're all imports, and they're all high mileage, out of date machines. Yet that go for extortionate amounts of money. That doesn't mean they're bad, it just doesn't make them suitable for beginners.

Then there's the 600s, 750s and litre bikes. They're simply too powerful for a learner who wants to progress neatly without killing themselves. (Me? Yes, I went from a 50 to a 600. But then I'm a bit of a knob, I just wanted the powah.) There's loads to choose from, but what's the point of getting a 90-100bhp bike, only to take away most of that power? (Note that mine isn't restricted either, I take that risk. But I'm not basing this post on the sort of person I am. I'm talking from a sensible person's point of view, who wants to take it easy but still get a thrill.)

The obvious answer is to stick with a 125. But the 2 strokes have the same problem as the 250s, they're unreliable and expensive. And the 4 strokes are gutless, and if you wanted to stay on a 4 stroke 125, let's face it, you wouldn't bother passing your test.

I think from the bike manufacturers' point of view, they're letting a goldmine slip them by. Let's think about the CBR125. It's a slow, reliable bike which is really tarty and expensive. Doesn't sound particularly good. Yet it was the highest selling bike of last year! If the retards realised that they could cash in on the just-passed 33bhp licence holders, they'd get going on a bike which doesn't only look good, but which is ideal for a beginner. Something like an ER5, which looks like an R6. Yes, from a practical point of view, it's a bloody stupid idea. But so was the CBR!

The learner market is the most volatile, competetive market for bikes out there. It's a constant bidding war between the cheap manufacturers knocking bikes together, and the high-end manufacturers' whose bikes everyone wants to be seen on. As a result, prices for 2nd hand, good bikes, which everyone loves to be blitzing around on, are extremely high. Take the DT125. They've been in production, what, 25 years? Yet the design has barely changed! Yamaha made a bike that was so good for the learner market they can afford to be lazy dicks and just sit back and watch the cash roll in, year after year. And the 2nd hand prices remain amazingly high. The there's the RS125, which has to be the most popular 125. Whether you have one or not, your learner brain knows it's inherently cool. So prices are horrendous! £3500 new, and 2nd hand prices starting at £3000!

If only the makers realised they could create the same sort of attention with 33bhp bikes, they'd be rolling in it, I reckon. Something which looks and sounds like a stylish 400 or 600, but has the power to keep them alive for a couple of years and keep their licence. Basically, there needs to be a 33bhp, 4 stroke RS125. Something everyone wants but which isn't illegal or deadly.

The only drawback would be that it's often the performance figures which make the bike cool, which is why the RS is so popular. I see the CBR125 as the start of a new era, where a bike doesn't have to be the fastest out there just to be cool. Anyone who owns one thinks it's pretty (God knows why), it does sound pretty damn gorgeous, and it's cheap to insure and run. The initial cost - well, it's not cheap, but the market they're targeting is a market where the parents will often buy, and they're probably just happy not to be paying £10,000 for a new Polo. The rest of them end up buying 2nd hand. Exactly the same could apply to a just-passed bike. It doesn't need to go fast, and it doesn't need to be a good choice to buy. It just needs to be cool.

[St0rmer66]

Definitely don't wanna go down the 2-stroke road, I use my bike nearly every day since it's my only form of transport.

Basically, you summed up everything I was thinking in your post Rookie! Something like a 250cc 4-stroke sports bike would probably be about right for 33bhp. It would sell like crazy I bet.. but alas the manufacturers are blind to it .

It needs to look good! I'm sure most people have that opinion too (although there are always those who don't give a damn of course..).
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:: Honda XR 125 L ('53) => Kawasaki GPZ 500S ('02) => Suzuki SV650S ('00) => Aprilia RSV-R ('51) ::

[0ddball]

I'm not too sure a 33bhp R6 lookalike would sell that well judging by the poll elsewhere on the forum. I'd guess 90% of people don't keep the restrictors in anyway. There aren't too many people sensible enough to stick to the power limit.

If they enforced the limit properly then there probably would be a market for a 33bhp 4 stroke 250-400cc sports bike.

You could always looks at something like a zxr250. on the negative side they are quite rare, are getting on a bit and have the squared off look. On the plus side they do look quite nice in most peoples eyes, are 4 stroke and they rev to the moon.

If you are a poser and have to have the modern sports look then you'll just have to buy a 600 and restrict it.

[strag]

What about the ER6? They are a nice twin 650. Still need restricting but go well enough.

https://www.prendreuncafe.com/blog/images/Moto/kawaer6.png

https://images.google.co.uk/url?q=https://www.kawasaki-turkiye.com/motosiklet/motosiklet/sports/er6f/06EX650A_BLK_RF.jpg
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carbon bling

[Jess]

What about a GS500F - they restrict well look reasonably OK till you sit on one and have sufficient power till your restrictions off. You're have to hunt around to find one but worth a thought - Inifinity had a secondhand one!

[yambabe]

There are loads of sub-33bhp bikes about, have a look at Batmotorcycles site:

https://www.batmotorcycles.co.uk/33bhp.asp

But I would have to agree that most of them aren't sporty-looking.

Honda
Rebel 250
GB250
Steed 400
CB400
FT500
XL500S
XL500R
BROS400
GB400TT
NV400C
VRX400
MAGNA250
CB250RS
CB250NH
XLR250
XLR250Degree
XR250

Kawasaki
KE175-D
Z200-A
Estrella 250
KL250-C
Z250-A
Z250-B
Z250-C
EL250-D/F
KL250 D7
KLX250-G

Suzuki
Goose 350
DR350S
Intruder 400
DR250S
Desperado 400
DR400S
SP400
SP370
GS250T
GSX250E
GT200
GT250E
LS650F
SB200
LS400Savage
LS400Tempter
SX200
VS400
TS185ER
TS250ER
GN250
DR350SE
LS650P

Yamaha
DT175MX
RD200DX
RS200
SRV250
XS250SE
XS250
XT250
SRX250
Drag Star 400
SRX400
SR500
SR250
XV250
XT350
SDR200
TT250
Serow 225
SR400
SR500
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Sod falling in love, I wanna fall in chocolate.

[MRX Steve]

[veeeffarr]

Rare as rocking horse shit, but in this list that babyyam mentioned is this:

SRX400

https://www.tar.hu/srx/kepek/srx400.jpeg

[Raffles_Gentleman Thug]

Rookie, you missed a few categories that i'll come to shortly.

Basically, there's a simple reason why there are no 33bhp bikes.

Not many people choose to do their test under 21, and those that do tend by nature not to have much money, so they couldn't afford a £4000 brand new 33bhp motorbike, especially since they'd sell it after 2 years at most, and would lose 1/4 to 1/3 of the value in depreciation alone.

Those who could afford it will simply buy a bigger bike and restrict it.

There's no commercial viability.

Now, on to Rookie's post. You covered most point.

I have to disagree with one or two things. You describe 2stroke 250s as needing a lot of maintainance, not true, they're very simple to work on and if you warm them up and use good oil they need less work than equivalent four-strokes. You can even do most of the service yourself, a very cost effective way to do it.

There are also bikes you didn't consider, such as the Honda CBF250, Kawasaki KLE500, grey imports such as the Suzuki Goose or Honda Bros, and many others that make under 33bhp or close to, and are lighter than GS500s and the equivalent which make brilliant newbie bikes.
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"Is sir addressing me or is he masticating on a house brick? Because either way sir loses his teeth."

[scott666]

You can get a brand new GS500F for £2500 pre reg at george whites and free delivery anywhere (Bargain). I passed last month and going for this. Itll only cost me £700 when trade in my CBR125 plus its cheap insurance because its seen as a 'Sporty Commuter'. Can't go wrong.

[fuzz]

[lilredmachine]

a lot of 250cc 4 strokes are not 'near enough' 33 bhp. They are about 45 hp, particularly models such as the zxr-250.
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[tsmith]

I'd go either for a

2002 Kwaker GPZ 500S in red and black

or a 2004 Suzi GS500F in blue and white

both look quite sporty for a commuter 500. The GPZ is cheap to insure (group 9) and also pretty fast. The GS looks nice and has a huge 20L fuel tank.


The Kwak ZXR400 is good if you want a sports 400. I think they stopped doing them back in 02 or 03. Higher insurance though (group 12 I think)

Failing that, check out the Honda CBR400 or Yammy FZR400.


good luck

[fuzz]

[dainesefreak]

Suzuki GSR600, Yamaha MT01 & XT660X, Honda FMX650.

I think there's actually more choice than ever if you count them all up.

[lilredmachine]

https://www.motorbikes.be/en/Kawasaki/1990/ZXR%20250/

Take your choice.

I wouldn't trust those sites at all though, they have a habit of posting false information all the time.
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[St0rmer66]

I've looked at the ZXR250 before, it seemed almost ideal at first but then I realised how rare it is in the UK.. pretty much to the point of it being impossible to find one. So not really a viable option.

The GS500F is "alright" looking. I don't think I could ever buy one though.. I'd be disappointed with it and wish I'd gone for something else. Theres something about it that just makes it look like it's trying to be something it's not. The tiny exhaust and the feel that the fairing has just been "bolted on" as an afterthought. I'd rather have a naked one..

The GPZ500S isn't sporty looking I would say. Obviously it was when it was around new, but it just looks dated compared to todays bikes. I think if I'm gonna go for a 500cc bike it will almost certainly have to be a naked one (ER-5 or GS500E).

The ER-6F actually looks very nice but since they're so new they'll be far too expensive for me I reckon . I think if I was going to go as far as a 650cc, I'd go for an SV650S instead. Then it has the lower down riding position and I could add the aftermarket full fairing on afterwards which makes it look better than an ER-6F IMO. Plus it has a proper exahust on it . Is the insurance quite a lot lower on them than for a 600cc sports bike though
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:: Honda XR 125 L ('53) => Kawasaki GPZ 500S ('02) => Suzuki SV650S ('00) => Aprilia RSV-R ('51) ::

[fuzz]

Insurance group for SV650: 9 - 10 (for S model)
Insurance group for sports 600: ~14

So effectively, yes, for someone young/low NCB.
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https://www.bikepics.com/members/fuzzbcf/
Bikes: '99 NSR125R, '00 SV650S, K1 GSX-R600, '97 CB500, K3 SV1000S, '16 VFR800

[MRX Steve]

[dainesefreak]

Check out the back of Bike magazine, etc.