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pwntifex
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 Posted: 19:19 - 23 Sep 2006  Post subject: |
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Finally. 
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craigie b
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| Posted: 22:50 - 23 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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Thats the dumbest rebuttal I've ever read |
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pwntifex
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Posted: 06:08 - 24 Sep 2006  Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | There is no need to kill someone who makes a conspiracy theory because the main stream population niavely believe what the government tells them regardless. Killing of a conspiracy theorist would simply create more conspiracy, thus defeating the purpose of killing them.
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Conspiracy theorists have been around for years. In reality, the government doesn't give two shits. And THAT'S why they don't do anything to stop them.
| cragie b wrote: | The fact 'debunkers' have to resort to insults only shows that they do not have the intelectual capacity to use evidence to support their thought which suggests they have not properly researched their topic.
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The fact that conspiracy theorists consistently refer to those who do not share their beliefs as less intelligent than themselves is, in my opinion at least, paramount in this discussion of plausibility.
| cragie b wrote: | What makes me laugh though is the way people honestly believe governments give two fucks about us or our lives. Do people really believe their life is important to their government? 3000 US lifes means nothing to the US government. |
Hang on. Denying that the WTC was a controlled explosion perpetrated by the US govt. is not the same thing as believing that the government cares about you. We know they don't. But that doesn't mean it's not in the government's interest to at least pretend they do.
And killing x thousand people is a funny way to show it.
Look, if nothing else try at least to pretend you understand logic.
OK. Governments tend to work on this principle. Yes, not always, but usually. It's ILLOGICAL for the US govt. to kill 3,000 of its own people and destroy two very expensive towers, four very expensive airplanes (and cause god knows how many billions of dollars in the process) just to justify a war and some oil.
It is very easy to take a country to war, especially with a nation such as the United States; there is no use wasting such money before going into a conflict. Sure, war is a very lucrative business, but the US govt. does not want its troops to be deployed without sufficient weapons, ammunition, etcetera. This is not because they care about them, but because their defense depends on them. The less equipped your soldiers are, the more you are likely to lose; and the more you lose, the less able you are to defend yourself.
Of course, I know that the US has plenty of men to spare, and of course that the war in Iraq/Afghanistan is not their priority. It's not hard to see that the oil is the prime factor here, but I fail to see how that correlates with blowing up several buildings in their capital city.
Now, the US govt might be evil, capitalist, blah blah blah, but it isn't stupid. (And don't mention Bush, because you're a moron if you think he's actually running anything). The huge risks alone involved in blowing up the twin towers and all of the aircraft (mainly those relating to being found out) make the idea implausible. If the 9/11 bomb theory actually had any weight, it'd be going through the courts, like the Diana case is now.
But, just like the fake moon theory, it's not.
Buzz Aldrin will tell you that he set foot on the moon. He'll tell you over and over. But people keep telling him that he didn't, and now he doesn't bother.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that when someone makes an observation (such as the odd way that the tower fell), 10 000 more people instantly believe that there was a bomb, or that they saw a CIA agent crawling around the outside, or why werent there any stars on the photos or why why why.
Conspiracy theories gain weight because they are propogated by idiots who believe that "getting it" makes them somehow intelligent, or special. Simply because 150,000 americans believe in a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it is necessarily true. Indeed, most of these observations are based upon the 'facts' that people who are neither experts nor experienced in the field have introduced.
Yes, I have heard a guy on the net who was a 'structural engineer of 3840 years and no way could that have happened if a plane had..' etc etc. but how many times have you seen a plane fly into a tower? I know you don't want to admit it, but what're the chances of that happening? Seriously? One in a million? No matter how remote, it's still possible.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. It's late.
I expect this post will be nitpicked and flamed to hell and back; if you want to analyse my tired thoughts, go ahead.
For a simpler analysis, picture it like this: I want your bike.
Now, should I murder your entire family and burn down your house in order to get it?
Or shall I just make you a cash offer?
I do, however, feel sorry for you people. It's almost as if that overbearing cynicism has pushed all of the happiness out of your lives.
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h00dwink
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| Posted: 15:54 - 24 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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still, this one doesn't get anybody who believes in this conspiracy to stop and think?
https://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/conspiracy_tot2.gif
sure there's loads of outside "experts" one's simmilar to the random jackass you've never head of being quoted in the sun about some story to give it credibility.
but surely with the thousands of people who would have had to be involved in this, in the 5 years since, or the years it would have taken to prepare it, no one has let slip even a minute hint that it could possibly have been a government setup.
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craigie b
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| Posted: 10:06 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The fact that conspiracy theorists consistently refer to those who do not share their beliefs as less intelligent than themselves is, in my opinion at least, paramount in this discussion of plausibility. |
I believe I said the fact he resorts to insults is why I think he lacks any intellectual capacity. Debate and argue points and I will consider the opposite side of the fence. Lay on insults and your point becomes no more relevant than that of a childs.
The rest of your opinions are, as Siggi points out, incredibly niave. Historically, governments have pepretated crimes against their own people to create political gain and create a 'bogey man' to scare people into believeing they are being oppressed. The Nazis did it (the reichstag fire) , The Americans proposed it in the 60's (operation northwood) and christ the notion has been kicking about since Nero started torching buildings in and around rome for his own political gain.
You think the cost of two towers, a couple of planes and wasted life is a lot to sacrifice to generate public support for two wars? Given the Iraq conflict costs between 1 - 4 Billion every month, the money you talk of is literally pockect change.
The Project for the New American Century (written partial by the vice president) clearly states that the US needs to restructure the middle east so the US can remain the worlds dominant superpower, yet it would take a catalystic event to get the people of america to support such actions. A year or so later the catalystic event occurred in the form of 9/11.
| Quote: | I do, however, feel sorry for you people. |
You feel sorry for people who are prepared to think outside of the realms of 'what you are told to think'? Are you some kind of fucking mother superior? Take your sympathy and shove up your fucking arse. Fucking prick.[/quote]
Last edited by craigie b on 10:49 - 25 Sep 2006; edited 2 times in total |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 10:11 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| h00dwink wrote: | still, this one doesn't get anybody who believes in this conspiracy to stop and think?
https://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/conspiracy_tot2.gif
sure there's loads of outside "experts" one's simmilar to the random jackass you've never head of being quoted in the sun about some story to give it credibility.
but surely with the thousands of people who would have had to be involved in this, in the 5 years since, or the years it would have taken to prepare it, no one has let slip even a minute hint that it could possibly have been a government setup. |
There have been plenty of credible people from the FBI, the CIA, police, firefighters, military generals etc who have came forward with their opinion and evidence, but because people find the thought that 9/11 must be as stated by the US government, the opinions are quickly ridiculed by people like yourself, with little or no investifgation by yourself. |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 10:59 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | Lay on insults and your point becomes no more relevant than that of a childs.
....
Are you some kind of fucking mother superior? Take your sympathy and shove up your fucking arse. Fucking prick. |
A pound of your finest hypocrisy, sirrah, and a side of irony to boot!
You want to believe that the US government blew up the towers? Fine. It's no skin off my nose (really). In fact, I quite enjoy discussing theories with people when they are able to hold a decent debate.
Unfortunately - at least in my experience, anyway - only a handful of conspiracy theorists are. If your opinion differs from that of the majority, you are somehow naïve, unenlightened; inferior, even. I'm not one to give much thought as regards what is written about me on a forum, but if you want your opinion to be seriously considered, perhaps you ought to learn the art of discussion - which means being able to share with the external parties concerned your topic, as well as the logical discrepancies inherent within and, conversely, the strengths - without getting defensive and generally arrogant when questioned.
You put your opinion forward. That's how it works. People discuss it with you, you learn something, they learn something, you move on. You don't shove it in front of their face and shout "THIS IS HOW IT IS, YOU FUCKING IDIOT! DON'T EVEN QUESTION IT!" It's not a battle to convert as many people as you can.
I know a frequent rebuttal is "well, at least I'm questioning [authority/things]" - but are you? If you wholly swallow a conspiracy theory and refuse to accept the frequent holes in logic (of which there are many, which is why it's a theory and not a truth - and which, by the way, do little or nothing to prove or disprove the concept) are you really any better than the idiots who blither on about how the world is in 'the best state it's ever been in'? If your true intention were to question, would it not be better to personally investigate the situation, rather than rely on wooly, but well-presented fifth-hand 'evidence'?
It's easy to dismiss by calling everybody who doesn't agree with you naïve; it's the same tactic used by extremist muslims to rally their cause, by branding all who don't believe infidels - a topic, I believe, at least one of you feels strongly about. Furthermore, it is one of the methods used to take a people to war, and to reduce their freedoms. Funny, that.
Also, a mass of people all believing in one thing, refusing to accept any counter-argument put forward, raising themselves above the general populace in terms of understanding and intellect; now, who does that remind you of?
(On that topic, the fact that you are mostly athiests who go on to decry those with a belief in religion is perhaps the heaviest irony here, since the belief in conspiracy theories generally requires the ability to accept concepts that require no - or indeed, are marked by a lack of - proof).
(Now, I'm not trying to offend, though I'm sure that won't stop somebody taking offence; I'm simply making observations).
| craigie b wrote: | You feel sorry for people who are prepared to think outside of the realms of 'what you are told to think'? |
Like I said, believing in something is one thing. Kudos for being able to do that.
But you get no brownie points for believing in something just to be different, nor do you gain anything for sticking stubbornly by it and consistently ignoring/putting forth weak arguments against the problems presented to you.
If you can't answer the question, it means one of two things:
Either you don't know your topic, or your topic has no definite answers.
A summary of the sort of things you may expect to find in a discussion are outlined below:
"Well, that's possible, but what about --"
"That's a very good point, but personally I believe that--"
"That's interesting. What proof do you have?"
"Well, none as such, but the existence of -- in conjunction with -- only lends credence to my argument."
Like I said; I'd love to have a proper discussion about this sort of thing. But I resent having ideas thrust in my face and being told that they are correct and flawless, and indeed rejected because of my lack of belief. I have, numerous times, received the same treatment from various organised religions, which I'm sure most of you can empathise with. In short, this sort of behaviour is NOT something I have come to expect from supposedly open-minded individuals.
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| Posted: 13:43 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | hypocracy? no, if you could keep on track I believe you will see I was reffering to your comment about feeling sorry for people, implying their somehow deluded. Reading between the lines thats the biggest insult you could put forward, as if your somehow looking down upon other people because they think differently from you.
As for debate, you bring no issues to the table, merely discrediting with no evidence. As stated there are plenty of examples of conspiracies which were used to manipulate people which proves that the concept is not infallible and out of the question. Rather than answer these issues you go off in a unsubstanciated rant and become condesending, so as I said, your a prick and pretty much on par with maddox. |
Behold: incorrigibility!  .
Hypocrisy, yes; I am perfectly aware of your intentions, however reacting to what I admit was open condescension in an aggressive and coarse manner, such as above and immediately previous, are far and above more accurate indications of immaturity than the belief in whatever particular conspiracy theory may be doing the rounds.
You bring no more issues to the table than I; instead, you present to us a theory which you assert, by your inability to discuss without open aggression and (up to now at least) the general lack of evidence, as fact.
I may discredit without fact, but not without logical thought. Indeed, I consider the possibilities and the likelihoods before making a decision. As such, I believe this theory to be improbable.
You, however - or so it appears from your posts - seem to eschew the logical thought process in favour of the abounding 'evidence', which to date I have not seen.
So: without condescension and with no agenda at all, I'll bite. Please direct me toward the evidence to which you refer when you say "credible people from the FBI, the CIA, police, firefighters, military generals etc came forward and gave their opinion and evidence".
I'd be interested to see it. Should such information be held on a "conspiracies" page, or a publication otherwise overtly partial to the persuasion of non-believers, though, it shall be discredited as fabrication unless confirmed by further sources - you should know as much as I that evidence is manipulated to the same extent by those who wish to decry the government as those who wish to defend it.
Lastly, please tell me at which point you conducted "investigation by yourself" into the matter; I would like to hear your findings and am curious as to the conditions in which you performed your research.
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| Posted: 13:56 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| Posted: 14:29 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | | Quote: | I may discredit without fact |
Then that relates everything you've said to the trash can |
Your argument grows thin, young jedi. Stop quoting selectively; that's the mark of a troll and someone who has no idea of the subject at hand. Perhaps if you were to show us these 'facts' I would not be so quick to discredit.
It is almost certain that you are also guilty of discrediting without fact, especially if you're an atheist. The fact is, if you are presented with a theory that has no substantial evidence, you will discredit it.
We may, however, reason; and my reasoning, based on the facts at hand, is that the theory in question is improbable at best.
Also, to be pedantic, I believe the word you are searching for is relegates.
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| Posted: 14:50 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We may reason, and my reasoning based on the facts is that the theory in question is improbable at best. |
As stated earlier, Operation Northwood, the Reichstag fire and even as far back as Nero burning Rome is proof that conspiracies have been used/proposed to create political gain.
I chose not to find the relevant articles since I though you might actually want to find out about them yourself, obviously not, since you feel relying on your own imagination is far more reliable.
The PNAC documents (rebuilding Americas defence) are also freely available online. Given its members are the same people working in the white house, you might not want to consider them to be conspiracy theorists.
Since terror has been used for political gain previously then it IMO proves that committing an atrocity against your own people isn't as unreasonable as you make it out to be.
Now you can read up on these or choose to discredit them but these are events, which did occur and were used for political gain. The only difference IMO is simply the scale of the terror used.
Also worth noting, given how you like to base argument on no facts or evidence is the way you have fabricated tales against me. At no point did I mention the twin towers, explosions, or anything in that realms.
All I stated, and this is my stance, is that I do not find it incomprehensible that the US government would kill 3000 + of its own citizens for political gain. Historically this has happened before, so it is not like a precedence is being set. Whether it be as Siggi suggested, that the events were allowed to happen or if the neo cons planned it themselves, I do not know. What I do know is there is enough cracks in the official story to render the whole story void and that many people have directly benefited from 9/11 and its aftermath.
And within the confides of Loose Change is enough credible witness's on video tape, including fire-fighters and police to suggest that there might have been bombs in the twin towers, since you decided to mention this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKdvl--1Dt0
Of course, all the fire-fighters could simply be lying because obviously no politician addressing a nation would lie.
Further more, the FBI has openly stated they have no evidence to charge Osama Bin Laden. Check the most wanted list, there is no charge for 9/11.
Instead asking me to spoon feed you with evidence, watch loose change, then google the ex military vets who claim to smell cordite around the pentagon or the demolition experts who think it collapsed too perfectly. Find out yourself if these people have hidden agendas. Either their lying or they aren't. |
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| Posted: 20:56 - 25 Sep 2006 Post subject: |
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to be honest, it's like religion in a way.
both sides, the believers and non believers are trying to convince each other that their respective opinion on it is correct. throwing up evidence here there and everywhere as justification. neither side will back down.
will watch that video later siggi if it's as interesting as you say. am in the heat of watching season 2 of prison break at the mo.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 19 years, 167 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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