Blinded by the Light

[Yosemity Sam]

MAG UK's response to the EU Commission's consultation on Daytime Running Lights can be downloaded at

https://www.network.mag-uk.org/oct06p15.html

(the paper is downloadable from a link at the bottom of the page)

To get the message over to the public we've entitled the press release 'Blinded by the Light' -

which is also a song written by Bruce Sringsteen and recorded by Manfred Mann's Earth Band

this is where you can read the music and hear the song:

https://www.angelfire.com/music3/mixedvariety/Wavs2/BlindedByTheLight.html

We'll be using this song to get the message over.

So, all together on the following chorus:

'Oh she was
Blinded by the light
Wrapped up like a deuce
Another runner in the night
Blinded by the light
Wrapped up like a deuce
Another runner in the night
Blinded by the light
Wrapped up like a deuce
Another runner in the night
Blinded by the light
Wrapped up like a deuce
Another runner in the night'

[froggeh]

I must say, having been to Sweden many times (my other half is swedish), I can say I agree with it. Certainly never been blinded during the day. It's only when it gets dark that lights bother me. And I can guarantee that you can see vehicles further away.

I certainly would never turn my lights off on the bike.

[Itchy]

on newer bikes you have NO choice in the matter an SV I was oggling the other day (or rather the tasty rider had no light switch or seemed not to since 50mph does kinda warp your senses a little)
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[ncrn]

im never running my bike without my lights, i need all the help i can get so i dont get hit by a sleepy cager..
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Past: 55 Sym Jet, 91 ZZR250, 03 NSR125R. Present: 97 ER-5.
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[stinkwheel]

If anyone ever sold me a bike without an off switch for the lights, I'd fit one.

Lights are NOT always appropriate. Especially around dawn and dusk where changing light conditions can mean a sillouhette is far easier to see than a headlamp. Running lights can totally rob an observer of their distance and speed perception, especially with a single headlamp (so-called "feature integration").

I have been on the recieving end of a re-start incident at a junction where only the actions of a third party in creating a space for me avoided a serious accident. This was caused entirely by my headlamp becoming 'lost' in the headlamps of following vehicles. "Sorry, I didn't see you.", well, she didn't, all she saw was a cluster of bright lights coming out of a low sun. She would have seen me if my headlamp had been switched off.

There is also the concern that mandatory use of headlamps would be used as an excuse. "His headlight wasn't on, therefore it isn't my fault I T-boned him officer.".

Govenments own conclusions:

[mchaggis]

I thought the only reason the UK had compulsory lights always-on was because it was cheapest to manufacture like that for the whole of the EU, as the rest of the EU (maybe, I dunno) has to have them?

Like Stinkwheel says, there are very definately times when it is not clever to have your lights on, in particular when the roads are wet, therefore shiney, and you are riding with the sun behind you. You stand little enough chance of being seen with the glare from the sun, let alone adding more of your own.
____________________
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Mmmm, Guinness
Discovering the delights of Hammerite and a 3/4" brush.

[Yosemity Sam]

[quote="mchaggis"]I thought the only reason the UK had compulsory lights always-on was because it was cheapest to manufacture like that for the whole of the EU, as the rest of the EU (maybe, I dunno) has to have them? quote]

The UK doesn't have compulsory lights always on. In fact the UK government is against Daytime Running Lights.

The motorcycle manufacturers have hard wired bikes so that they automatically switch on. But I've got an 11 year old Virago that isn't hard wired and I turn them on if I think it's necessary - but not always.

The EU Commission wants to introduce Daytime Running Lights (DRL) for ALL vehicles, including trucks, cars, vans, motorcycles and to make it compulsory.

Most EU countries do not have compulsory DRL. (All Scandinavian countries do - but we've got evidence that the fatality rates are no different in Sweden than in this country and that Norway has a higher proportion of motorcycle fatalities due to collisions with cars that here.

The problem is that if all vehicles have to have DRL, then there will be times that motorcycles will blend in and won't be seen by car drivers and be hit - these collisions are typically called SMIDSYs.

Also there is concrete evidence from Denmark that the number of pedestrians and motorcyclists killed has increased since the introduction of DRL.

Finally, the biggest concern is that with compulsory DRL, car drivers will be less inclined to look for pedestrians and bikers and more importantly the insurance companies might use that as an excuse not to pay out.

[froggeh]

It is an interesting issue. My gut feeling tho, is that it's probably better on than off. Just going from experience in fading light conditions, especially when overcast or raining, So many vehicles without lights, very difficult to see 'em.

[Yosemity Sam]

[bin]

As a biker and car driver I cringe at bikers who ride with no lights on during any time of day....you cannot be seen and car drivers are not looking for you....even if they look at you they dont see you....
put your lights on and use the horn at the right time....dont assume that the driver of the vehicle has seen you...
ride defensively, be prepared to give way and have an escape route.
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...its what you make of it...
...Silver Suzuki gsx1400...

[Davo]

On the other hand I've been extremely close to taking a bike out whilst driving, due to him using dipped headlights. The headlights did a brilliant job of "cloaking" the bike.

Had the guy of had his lights turned off he'd have created a nice dark silhouette and been visible.

Hence these day's when I'm riding the lights stay off until conditions require them (e.g. getting dark).

At the end of the day the thing most likely to prevent an accident is defensive positioning on the road.

[stinkwheel]

[Yosemity Sam]

[froggeh]

[Yosemity Sam]

[froggeh]

[Yosemity Sam]

[bin]

[stinkwheel]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an actual good, provable reason for why motorcycles should have daylight running lights.

Can anyone actually show that running with your lights on in daylight makes you less likely to have an accident?

I've taken the position in this debate that it doesn't make all that much difference, that the data is ambiguous at best and I've given a high powered study into the causes of motorcycle accidents to back this position up.

Anyone got anything else other than anecdote? I stand ready to be shot down in flames.

Justify your standpoint.

[bin]

Simple.....IF you drive a car or lorry or bus anything other than two wheels like I have....be critical about your own observations of other 2wheel traffic and for a start take a bikesafe weekend.....but you may already have greater knowledge than the traffic police.
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...its what you make of it...
...Silver Suzuki gsx1400...

[G]

Recently I saw, or didn't see a bike indicate. He had dipped lights on and I only saw the indicator as he turned, so I couldn't see the main beam of the headlight.

Also, there's issues with it being harder to see how far away a point light source is and that people may mis-interpret a vehicle with dipped lights going over a bumpy road as them 'flashing' their headlights.

[bin]

Judging distant and speed comes with experience.....which is where you start your roadcraft after passing the test....you pass the road test if you have a lucky day...after then you either improve or dont give a damn.
____________________
...its what you make of it...
...Silver Suzuki gsx1400...

[G]

Judging distance and speed is made harder when you can see a single point light source in your mirror, rather than the shape of a motorbike and rider.

[bin]

I can only reiterate G.....that it is experience as to how you react on what you see.....from a 4wheel point of view as you look through at least 2 thicknesses of glass it is difficult to judge speed etc. on that point of light....so what do you do....

From a bike point of view....ride defensively, cars have trouble judging where you are....anticipate before you overtake....ie is the vehicle in front about to overtake or change lanes or turn right or even swing right to turn left etc.... get your lights checked for alignment and dip....

Ride safe and enjoy your biking as I do.....these type of threads are good for discusion especially for born again and learners.
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...its what you make of it...
...Silver Suzuki gsx1400...

[mchaggis]

The thing is though, I'd rather not have to rely on a car drivers experience to not think I'm actually the car behind me. If they just glance right and see two headlights and the car they think they belong to rather than me, then they might well pull out.

As my driving instructor loves to say, never put yourself in the situation where you're relying on luck and the skills of other drivers. Keep your life in your own hands I say.

Riding defensively is a big part of the solution. If I stay put they might mistake my headlight for that of a car behind me. If I move about on the road, they'll see me, as a car doesn't have a headlamp which moves side to side.
____________________
I must not be a troll...
Mmmm, Guinness
Discovering the delights of Hammerite and a 3/4" brush.