Ive just been in a minor rta, UPDATE i have to fight

[colin1]

I was filtering past slow moving traffic. Traffic about 10mph, me about 20mph. On the map below, I was going from top to bottom along 'commonside'.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=52.494618,-2.131863&spn=0.004566,0.009956&om=1

The gap between blewitt street and bromley is about 5 metres. Its a residential area and at this staggered crossroads, there is a chippie and a spa with kids outside.

A woman in a rover 400 or similar joins commonside from blewitt street. I am level wiith her back wing, when she then puts her right indicator on, and turns right into bromley.

I hit her front right wing near the front of the car, and i think i did a forward roll over the bonnet landing in the road on my back. Fortunately there was nothing coming the other way.

Obviously I was a bit stunned, people were a bit shocked, i wanted to get my bike out of the road and get insurance details. The woman got out of her car, and said something like 'are you alright, oh your're not even wearing leathers', but seemed generally nice and wanted to take me to hospital. It was armoured cordura but she wasnt to know that. I did say it was a biker jacket but didnt explain.

Helmet took a fair whack and it was a £300 one. Damage to scooter seemed just bodywork, but since I have realised that pillion foot peg is missing.

I initially asked for insurance details but then said it might not be worth going through insurance as it was minor. This was before I started thinking about the helmet.

Her car is old and the dent is minor, there are other marks on the bonet that could have been from me going over it, but she said were there before.

She insisted on taking me to the hospital. I at first was thinking of just resting for a bit and riding home.

We swapped details. On the way to the hospital when we got to a junction she said something about being afraid to pull out of the junction. Without thinking i quipped that 'it is best to look'. We then got in a low key discussion about who's fault it had been but neither wanted to continue it much. She asked if i would overtake a car that was turning right. I said she should have looked. She said I shouldnt have been where I was. I said its normal for bikes to overtake 'standing traffic' actually it was very slow moving traffic, except for her who was keen to get across the staggered junction when she saw a gap in oncoming traffic.

She said she told me she works in A and E and had a word with a few people while i was there.

My neck and shoulders are a bit stiff, and i was in shock, maybe a bit of mild concussion.

I went home to drop off my damaged helmet and pick up the other one, and get a bus back to the scooter.

I went to get some chips b4 having a look at the juntion and riding off. It turned out that the lad serving in the chippie had seen it all and they had rushed out. They were pleased to see me, and the lad agreed with me that it was her fault. I got his details, pleased that it was no longer my word against hers.

I went out to the bike, and 3 girls came over. They had also seen it and also said that it was her fault. They had also been quite shocked at her attitude.

She had said things like. "Its not my fault he wasnt even wearing the proper gear." The girls said they had pointed out to her that i was wearing a padded jacket and boots. She had also said that she was a paramedic and was helping me and was going to take me to the hospital which somehow also proved it wasnt her fault.

The girls had been so outraged that they had taken her license plate.

The only thing is Im not sure if the words of 14 year olds as to who's fault, will hold against a paramedic who clearly doesnt think it was her fault although she doesnt claim to have looked before turning.

i was taught mirror signal manouever. She should have seen me in her wing mirror if she had looked. Its possible I was in her blindspot when she did but she didnt check it, and i dont think she even checked her wing mirror.

Im not gonna try to make a big issue out of it and im assuming I have no long term serious injury. All I want is the price of a new lid, and maybe a footpeg, rather than calling it quits.

Interestingly, when the girls were telling me all about her attitude, there was a couple standing near, one who had on a paramedic uniform or similar. They had concerned looks on their faces, and i think they knew the woman, and what was said will get back to her.

Im fortunate that nothing was coming the other way, and that I wasnt on the tt600.

I havnt reported it to police as i dont think i have to.

It wasnt dark, as it was about 5.15. I had dipped beam on.

I intend to ring her tomorrow and say my piece.
I want her to be grateful she just has to cough up for the helmet and footpeg, and not to go through insurance as I think that would be hassle.

Opinions appreciated.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[G]

Witnesses saying it's her fault won't help.
Witnesses convincing people in the court, or whatever, that it's her fault based on what they saw is what matters.

£300 helmet + footpeg etc is not easy money for everyone, especially a paramedic.

You risk her fighting and you losing no claims.

Forward roll over her bonnet from 20mph - did you brake at all?

[Imonster]

This sample letter may be of some use to you mate...


Ref: - Accident {date & time}

Further to our previous conversations I feel it may make matters clearer by reference to the Highway Code. I shall compare my road position and manoeuvre with that of the other driver. You will see it is abundantly clear that I was doing nothing wrong and that the driver is entirely to blame.

My Circumstances

I was slowly overtaking a stationary line of traffic.

I refer you to rule 71 of the Highway Code in the section "Rules for Motorcyclists" which reads as follows:

71: Manoeuvring. You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When overtaking traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions.

A number of important points arise from this rule.

1. Note the use of the word WHEN as emphasised in the rule. It does not say "Do not overtake traffic queues" (or words to that effect), or suggest that it is an inappropriate course of action to take. It is clearly not a prohibitive instruction (see for example rule 74 which give prohibitive instructions). This clearly envisages that motorcyclists may, in the normal course of riding, overtake traffic queues.

2. I had already checked my mirrors and glanced behind to make sure nothing was overtaking the traffic queue already.

3. It was only the fact that I was progressing relatively slowly, in order to check for pedestrians who may be crossing between the vehicles making the accident much less serious than it would otherwise have been.

Before I move on, it is probably worth referring to the General rules for motorcyclists set out in rules 67 to 69. Again, I have reproduced these below.

67: On all journeys, the rider and pillion passenger on a motorcycle, scooter or moped MUST wear a protective helmet. Helmets MUST comply with the Regulations and they MUST be fastened securely. It is also advisable to wear eye protectors, which MUST comply with the Regulations. Consider wearing ear protection. Strong boots, gloves and suitable clothing may help to protect you if you fall off.

68: You MUST NOT carry more than one pillion passenger and he/she MUST sit astride the machine on a proper seat and should keep both feet on the footrests.

69: Daylight riding. Make yourself as visible as possible from the side as well as the front and rear. You could wear a white or brightly coloured helmet. Wear fluorescent clothing or strips. Dipped headlights, even in good daylight, may also make you more conspicuous.

You will note that:

1. I had complied with rule 67 by wearing protective clothing, which again helped reduce the seriousness of the accident.

2. I had complied with rule 68.

3. I had complied with rule 69 by using dipped headlights. I always ride with dipped headlights as it is considered good practice and safer to do so.

Accordingly, the only conclusion which may be drawn from the above is that I was riding my motorcycle safely and as envisaged by the Highway Code. I cannot, therefore, be to blame in any way for the accident.

Mr Xs Circumstances

I now turn to Mr Xs driving manoeuvre.

I shall compare his manoeuvre to two fairly similar manoeuvres; setting off from rest as he was stationary and making a right turn.

Setting Off From Rest

This is governed by rule 135 of the General Rules for Using the Road. This is reproduced below:

135: Before moving off you should

use all mirrors to check the road is clear

look round to check the blind spots (the areas you are unable to see in the mirrors)

signal if necessary before moving out

look round for a final check.

Move off only when it is safe to do so.



Check the blind spot before moving off

It is quite clear that Mr X failed to undertake all, or more likely any, of the requirements given that my body was level with his drivers door when he made the manoeuvre.

Turning Right

This is governed by rule 155 of the Road Junction section for Using the Road. This is reproduced below:

155: Well before you turn right you should:

use your mirrors to make sure you know the position and movement of traffic behind you

give a right-turn signal

take up a position just left of the middle of the road or in the space marked for traffic turning right

leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left, if possible.

The first point to note, however, is that Mr X was not turning right as I approached. He was stationary in a queue of traffic for a red light. Clearly, Mr X does not have the patience to wait for lights to change so decided to take a different route by turning right. He chose to make this decision as I was level with him.

Again, however, the emphasis of the first two requirements is on observation and signalling. As set out above, Mr X failed these on both counts.

Accordingly, the only verdict which can be reached from the above analysis of Mr Xs manoeuvre is that it was undertaken without sufficient care and attention to myself and other road users.

Conclusion

Mr X was stationary and I took all reasonable care to overtake a stationary vehicle. I checked before doing so, no right indicator on the car, no mirror checks carried out by Mr X, no wheel turns to indicate movement, and the car remained stationary so I proceeded to overtake.

Mr Xs lack of patience to wait in a queue to move clearly made him decide to take a different route. The issue here is he pulled out without mirror checks or signals whilst I was LEVEL with him by the drivers door. Not only is this driving without due care and attention, how Mr X could not HEAR my engine next to him, or be aware of movement right next to him is clearly indicative that he was not concentrating on what was going on around him.

Mr X is young and appears to only have had his licence a short while. But this does not excuse him for not making the proper checks - what if I were a pedestrian or pedal cyclist? More substantial injuries could have been caused by his inattention.

As shown above, I have followed the road rules clearly and exactly and am in no way responsible for this accident. If Mr X had made all the checks required as shown above or been paying attention he would have been aware of my presence and not moved until I had passed, in which case this accident would not have occurred.

I trust this is sufficient to pass to his insurers..

regards etc etc etc



Delete anything innapropriate as such.

Good luck...

[Paivi]

You may call it filtering, and we've all done it, but what it really was was overtaking at a junction. Case law would deem you to be 80% liable.

If you're fully comp, your insurance company should be able to give you details for the legal cover people.

You should report it to the police; it will look worse for you if she does and you don't. Also, your insurance company will insist on it anyway.

[colin1]

[Kickstart]

Hi

As Paivi says, it would come out at best part fault either way.

[bazza]

Glad you're alright mate.

Definitely report it to the police - for all you know, she could have already reported it as a hit and run for insurance reasons.

It happened to a work colleague who ended up with a £250 fine and 6 points for touching wing mirrors with a retired copper then driving off when the bloke threatened to drag him out of the car and kick his face in.

Trust no-one - she could be filling in a claim for whiplash right now...
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"That's it. You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college."
'98 Ducati 750SS, '08 Suzuki GSX650F ©2004-2014, Bazza's Harmless Banter

[colin1]

[colin1]

[Vaxius]

Cracking post Imonster I think it sums up alot of what you need to know. As with everything regarding insurance, money and law you must be very careful what words you chose when describing any situation you need to. If that made any sense?

Basic example would be not to say "I didn't notice her pulling out", you may want to rephrase it to "I saw her pull out but did not have time to react." - well you understand what I am saying.

Good luck with whatever it is you do though
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If at first you don't succeed - sky diving is not for you.
Hoping to soon join the road on two wheels.Currently working on: Safety gear / theory test / CBT
*Selling an IBANEZ s470 Deluxe Quilted Maple in natural fade (Very Rare in UK) - Click Here*

[colin1]

ive just spoken to my local police station and they have confirmed that as no injuries, not necessary to report
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Itchy]

Ring the police inform them of the incident covers your arse no matter whos fault it was 6-9 points
occur if you do not report it and the other side reports it EVEN with a hit n run ,

this happened to Sadie , I reported being knocked off my a Santa fe who drove off to cover my ass.

you should tell them within 24hours, I reported my hit n run after 24 hours , but then I know the cop who
I reported it to, who overlooked this.


I think 50-50 best case 75-25.

Since you were apparently filtering past a junction , Yes I do this as well but I ride wide or use
cars as sheilds for this activity., filtering at a junction normally means 100% your fault , since
filtering = overtaking and the highway code says not to overtake at junctions.

She is trying contributory negligence saying you wore no biker gear , you can cram that back up
her ass , since protective gear other than a helmet is recommended (as is high vis) but not
a legally defined item that MUST be worn, kill that for you.

however she was negligent in not looking = driving without due care n atten and she admitted this
fact to you (oh if only you had a dictaphone with a sticker on your jacket saying you were recording)
this would be an easy 75-25.

She also took you for a ride to try figure out your defence , which was a bad idea ,

if you are hit / crash whatever , its army time baby!

you are a POW:

NAME
Tel no
insurance
+ call cops

say nothing , admit no liability , say nothing which will harm your defence!, the odd fuck/shit/bastard
can be explained by anger and or shock though.

call the cops and sit down.

If you think the girls will be flipped counter flip them , remind them or have your solicitor send them
a letter informing them of the law that purjury in a court of law is an offence punishable by imprisonment
think Jeff Archer.Its like when a girl says I have a boy friend , if she is 7+ you flip this statement.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[colin1]

well i just spoke to her, and she said ok with calling it quits, but she is going to get her car checked to price the damage.

if she does decide to go through insurance later, i've got the witnesses and the value of my helmet probably means with a 50/50, id be claiming more

i dont want the hassle, and the uncertainty of outcome, and im thinking she will think the same.

if i knew i could prove she was in the wrong, then i might want a battle, but i dont as i cant.

I think i will take my scooter in to have a bill drawn up for replacements tho just in case.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[mrtEE]

[colin1]

yeah i got it for £160 but it hadnt been used and was cheap cos it was last years model.

not sure id be able to get another one at that price, so the cost of replacement would be £300

i will start looking

the pillion peg i should be able to get from someone breaking a yp250, along with its plastic surround. not sure how much that will be
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Kickstart]

[doggone]

I would be inclined to minimise hassle and put this one down to experience.
If yout take this to insurance companies and court case it will go on for months and you'll be sick to death of it.
Unlikely you have much hope of more than 50-50.
Repair minor dmage and buy another lid when you can.

[colin1]

well its quite possible with whiplash style injuries something could show up later, but i feel ok at the moment

so no obvious injuries so no need to report.

if she is a paramedic, she may have not wanted it going any further because of her job

if she does decide to take it further, i wont accept that she wasnt at fault, and my witnesses are very keen to support me. and i think her spies will have told her this, so she wont want to push it.

id agree with doggone as thats my plan

i liked the plain blue astro r lid as it matched my 600, but having no pattern, it did really show up the few slight scratches i had given it.

i need another lid straight away, as my pillion is too big for my pillion helmet, and uses my other medium helmet so i'll be hunting on ebay tonight
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Kickstart]

[RealNinja]

I was involved in an overtaking / filtering incident and few years ago, and believe me if you want to get her to admit blame be prepared to dig in for a long fight!

Thier is a case that has set presedent for filtering cases when a biker was seen to be only 5% liable for the accident, meaning that the car driver was 95% at fault, but this is what the precedent is set at and if you fight it, I bet thats what they offer you.

Be warned, even if you accept 5% liablity, you are still amditting blame and would lose no claims and clean insurance as if you had admitted 100% liability.

Personally I say fight it, it certainly seems in your case that she should have checked her blind spots and mirrors before doing anything, and didn't.

Quick question:

Would she have been able to see you filtering before she pulled out of the junction?
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You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now and claim your destiny

[colin1]

[tintin]

Colin
Write it all down and date it. I had an accident when a pedestrian ran out between two vans as I was filtering and knocked me off. They didn't look my way at all. I didn't claim for the damage to my bike as I knew it was going to be difficult, plus I was 3rd party only.

Just under FIVE YEARS later they put in a personal injury claim to my insurance company because they had broken their hip at the time. luckily I had a record of the events. I was not held to be at fault but even so the insurance investigator said they would probably just settle it to avoid a long court case.
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The older I get the better I was

[ram_doom]

Sorry to hear this Colin, cant offer anything helpful other than I hope you get it sorted hassle free
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TL1000s, KDX200

[colin1]

update

the bitch has had her car looked at and the bracket that holds her bumper on is bent and is gonna cost something like £300 or something stupid

she has given her account to policemen she knows and they have told her she isnt at fault, so she wants to make a claim

she is also now saying that she was stood in traffic a bit before turning, which isnt true

i might just roll over and pay the £300 to save the hassle or i might get quotes for all damage and fight

my claim will be more with all panel damage and helmet

if the result is a 50 50 on responsibility, will she have to pay half my costs and i have to pay half her costs ?

has anyone gone through this and got any tips ?

if i want to win and want to use a bike solicitor, do i contact the bike accident solicitor first or the insurer first ?

if my insurance includes legal cover, does that only cover a lawyer they provide, or could i pick another lawyer ?

i was hoping i wouldnt have to fight

i have 3 witnesses and a lot of it is down to the situation at this particular location. She turned off the road just after she had turned onto it. Should i take photos of the location to help present my case ?

Good news is she isnt pretending she looked in her wing mirror. She is saying she shouldnt have to look in her wing mirror before turning right.

Her view is that i shouldnt have overtook a car that was turning right, but she only indicated when i was alongside her giving me no time to react. She indicated just after straightening up, and the turn off the road to the right is just after.

im also now less inclined to put up with my stiff neck

the doctor said when i was examined that i still would have adrenaline flowing, so any aches and pains wouldnt necessarily show up when he examined me
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[NSR Mick]

Sorry to say this colin but it sounds like a classic overtaking at a junction, if so you will lose.
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