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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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 Posted: 15:16 - 19 Oct 2006  Post subject: |
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| Siggi wrote: | Point is, you don't see me running an Icelandic flag up my pole, or running around the streets with a broadsword every time an Icelandic gunboat has to teach the Royal fucking Navy some manners.
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Shhh! we don't talk about that!
| craigie b wrote: |
2.7% is 1.5 million of the 60 million who live here. Barely spectacular
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Since when were 1.5 million people barely spectacular? That's a good sized metropolis - or a handful of English cities.
Muslims have an inordinate amount of impact on this nation, its public life and its laws - especially in London and other areas where minorities aren't really minorities.
| Quote: |
What you are demonstrating is a excellently uneducated opinion, or more to the point a media induced opinion that is largely speculative and full of falsehoods.
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For someone who cannot even be bothered to spell his name with capitals, you certainly have some pluck trying to take the moral high ground on education!
Why is it that if someone doesn't like Muslims, (or gays, or Iraqis, or immigrants) people like you bleat about them not being educated, or being pawns of the media, or being full of 'falsehoods'?
MAYBE WE JUST DON'T LIKE THEM!!!!
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>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 15:27 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Supporting the Race Relations Industry - and associated legislation - does indeed mean you support positive discrimination, because that ideal is at the heart of almost everything to do with 'equal opportunities'. |
I've never read anything to support that assertation. In fact I've never even heard of the race relations industry.
| Quote: | The Guardian and The Independent not only support such things, they positively encourage them, and label as racist/prejudiced/moronic anyone who does not. |
The guardian is one of the few papers making an effort to get storys from the frontline in Afghanistan at the minute. I read very little of it promoting positive discrimination.
| Quote: | At no point did I say that a majority of people support that kind of shit, (although one could put forward the old saying "for evil to triumph......") I said 'vast swathes', and I stand by it. |
Fair point, but all I did was ask you to prove your point rather than give me your personal experience of it because you now rightly that your view is going to be biased as fuck, especially when you work with the worse end of the ethnic pile.
| Quote: | I sure you mean well, bless your little cotton socks, but I'm equally sure that most of the other people with your beliefs do - despite their meddling having got us into this pretty little bind. |
Exactly what beliefs are that? The belief that people should be allowed to wear what they want? The belief that the governmnet shouldn't interfere with this?
I did say I thought Jack Straw was perfectly right to ask people to remove their veil, what I disagreed with was government and media intervention as I think its such a none issue. |
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| pwntifex |
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pwntifex
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Posted: 15:34 - 19 Oct 2006  Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | I've never read anything to support that assertation. In fact I've never even heard of the race relations industry.
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I'm sorry, but I fail to see how anybody can consider the gaps in their own knowledge constituting toward furthering their argument.
| craigie b wrote: | The guardian is one of the few papers making an effort to get storys from the frontline in Afghanistan at the minute. I read very little of it promoting positive discrimination. |
Perhaps you should read further, the articles and bias are quite evident, although they are somewhat more subtle than in the Daily Mail..
| craigie b wrote: | Fair point, but all I did was ask you to prove your point rather than give me your personal experience of it because you now rightly that your view is going to be biased as fuck, especially when you work with the worse end of the ethnic pile. |
Experience is a valid method of proving one's point. Not choosing to accept this is indicative of your own temperament, not Mister James'.
| craigie b wrote: | Exactly what beliefs are that? The belief that people should be allowed to wear what they want? The belief that the governmnet shouldn't interfere with this? |
What part of the veil not being a simple piece of fashion do you not understand?
| craigie b wrote: | I did say I thought Jack Straw was perfectly right to ask people to remove their veil, what I disagreed with was government and media intervention as I think its such a none issue. |
Then you are failing to see the whole issue.
As interesting as this topic of discussion is, I sense that you are floundering. 
____________________
the warped one: This is a follow up from the thread 'my willy hurts'
Last edited by pwntifex on 15:36 - 19 Oct 2006; edited 2 times in total |
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| G |
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G
The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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| Posted: 15:35 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | In some ways, it is no good saying that people should recognise that all Muslims are not extremists, any more than I would expect an Iraqi whose family had been killed by an LGB to recognise the difference between an RAF pilot and the Royal Military Police patrolling his street. |
Not a very good analogy; a milatry uniform of the same country suggests you specificaly take orders from the same Commander in Chief, or whatever.
Being of the same basic faith, or wearing clothes similar to other people does not mean you follow the same principals.
Do you think that it is reasonable the way many muslim people see all westerners in the same light because of the actions of those that have killed thier friends, family or countrymen?
I do not.
Therefore I would not think it's reasonable for us to think the same.
Two short sighted views do not show the whole picture.
| james wrote: | People who choose to align themselves to a grouping or an ideal must accept that they will most likely be identified with all of the actions of all of the others who do the same.
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That does happen, but in a lot of cases I do not think it's the 'right' thing.
| siggi wrote: | MAYBE WE JUST DON'T LIKE THEM!!!! |
Yes, I believe that may be the issue.
Personally, I don't like people that seem to hate for the sake of it.
Get out of my country, ta.
| siggi wrote: |
They were Germans, doing their German shit in their German country (Germany). Apart from the bits they did in countries they invaded. Which is why we whupped their arses out of those countries. |
You seem to have completly missed the point. Deliberately or not.
The point was, that just because one part of a society does nasty things, does not to me mean you should persecute all of that society. To you it seems it either does, or means that all of that society does nasty things, even when evidence showing the opposite of this.
| siggi wrote: | Tell you what though G, next time I'm in Japan I'll refuse to remove my shoes when visiting somebody's house and let you know how I got on. Then you'll be able to tell me how bang out of order those intolerant Japs are. |
If anyone, british or not comes into my home and is rude to, that I consider unacceptable.
However, see the number of Americans in Japan? I'd say that Japan is tolerant enough of them to allow them to walk around wearing their odd 'uniforms' and generally letting the west massively change japenese culture in the last 50 years.
In a similar manner, when I have lived abroad, we would obey local customs when with locals, however the locals had no problem with us continuing life as we were used to the rest of the time.
Personally I've always found it interesting to see other cultures, rather than hate them because they are different. |
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 15:36 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: |
2.7% is 1.5 million of the 60 million who live here. Barely spectacular
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Since when were 1.5 million people barely spectacular? That's a good sized metropolis - or a handful of English cities.
Muslims have an inordinate amount of impact on this nation, its public life and its laws - especially in London and other areas where minorities aren't really minorities.
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2.7% of the populace is not spectacular in the slightest, if everyone of voting age were to vote. When compared to the 92.1% of the populace that is white then 2.7% is extremely unspectacular.
The impact you talk of, I am not agreeing with. I'm disagreeing with you in who is responsible. It is not muslims making legislation but the very government that UK people voted for.
| Quote: |
For someone who cannot even be bothered to spell his name with capitals, you certainly have some pluck trying to take the moral high ground on education!
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| Quote: | Why is it that if someone doesn't like Muslims, (or gays, or Iraqis, or immigrants) people like you bleat about them not being educated, or being pawns of the media, or being full of 'falsehoods'?
MAYBE WE JUST DON'T LIKE THEM!!!! |
You don't like them because our government panders to them.....who the fuck is responsible for that? The whole point of this thread was to show how quickly people jump from the issue of 'should someone remove their veil if asked' and hjacked turned into a thrread which is 'All muslims are bastards'.
Its worth noting you all talk about integration, but it seems like you really mean assimilation. |
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| pwntifex |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 15:46 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | Muslims have an inordinate amount of impact on this nation, its public life and its laws - especially in London and other areas where minorities aren't really minorities. |
While I agree that yes, they have a large impact (is this very debate not proof?), out of that 1.5 million, how many have positively and constructively contributed to our society?
Compare to the Jewish population of the United Kingdom..
| craigie b wrote: | You don't like them because our government panders to them.....who the fuck is responsible for that? |
Well firstly, the government is responsible for that, generally.  While we are responsible for voting the government in (as a people), accusing us of having no right to complain because we voted them in is as absurd as holding you personally responsible for the state of the ozone layer.
I never said I didn't like muslims, but I resent those who refuse to integrate into our society; even more so when they instead wish to change it. How did you get from the veil to hating muslims, anyway? Rather ironic, don't you think?
Of course, by your logic, all of Germany was responsible for the holocaust because they were all in huge support of Hitler. 
| craigie b wrote: | The whole point of this thread was to show how quickly people jump from the issue of 'should someone remove their veil if asked' and hjacked turned into a thrread which is 'All muslims are bastards'. |
And yet the only point you've proven is that you are unable to focus on the actual point. I am certainly not saying that every single muslim in the world is a bastard. What I am saying is that, regardless of religion or race, if you want to come to this country then you must integrate. The Poles, the Jews, and countless other peoples have entered our country and for the most part positively contributed to our society by either making lots of money or taking the jobs that our lazy white-boi scummers don't want.
| craigie b wrote: | Its worth noting you all talk about integration, but it seems like you really mean assimilation. |
Many of them do not speak English, do not share the social and cultural values of the United Kingdom (such as freedom of speech, debate, tolerance and a sense of humour) and have no intention of doing so. In what way can this expectation be confused with assimilation?
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the warped one: This is a follow up from the thread 'my willy hurts' |
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craigie b
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craigie b
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| Posted: 16:14 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well firstly, the government is responsible for that, generally. Confused While we are responsible for voting the government in (as a people), accusing us of having no right to complain because we voted them in is as absurd as holding you personally responsible for the state of the ozone layer. |
I never said we had no right to complain. What I said was we were channeling our focus of discontent on the wrong people. Rather than target the Muslims who exert their democratic rights, we should be targeting the people who cave in to their demands. We should exert our rights in a much louder fashion as well, so we are heard rather than target others for simple practising what is practised in a free country.
| Quote: | What I am saying is that, regardless of religion or race, if you want to come to this country then you must integrate. |
integrate means to "bring together and blend several things into one". By that standard then we should accept certain aspects of their religion. We do this already and I firmly believe we give to much rights away to ethnic minorities.
However I do not think its entirely fair to blame the minorities when its the government who grants them the rights at our exspense.
Thats my point....targeting muslims is wasted energy since its the government we need to listen not the fucking muslims.
| Quote: | Many of them do not speak English, do not share the social and cultural values of the United Kingdom (such as freedom of speech, debate, tolerance and a sense of humour) and have no intention of doing so. |
That is not a muslim exclusive issue and once again a failing of our government for allowing this to happen. Since when did you have to share your neighbours sense of humour to live in a free country? |
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| killa |
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killa
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| pwntifex |
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pwntifex
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Posted: 16:31 - 19 Oct 2006  Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | pwntifex,
your posts are tiring. |
Perhaps they would not be so tiring if you ceased attempting to insult my intelligence at every turn. Please. It makes you look silly.
| craigie b wrote: |
point #2 Fair enough. But what about it....every paper has an agenda |
Well, in your previous post you stated: "I read very little of it promoting positive discrimination." Now you negate this by way of admitting that every paper has its own agenda?
| craigie b wrote: | point #3 Not true. One persons experience only shows the demograph for the areas he lives in. I live in York, most of th epopulation are white, as my native hometown in scotland. So my opinion does not show the whole picture for the nation. |
Yes, I know. Thus, Mister James has a greater level of experience in the matter. You may argue bias as regards his opinions if you wish, but you are then arguing that your inexperience somehow lends you an insight into the situation that full contact does not. Which is folly.
| Quote: | For example the muslim communitie used to have a positive impact in the center of Middlesbrough because at least they were't out pimping their daughters for crack on the streets. |
Oh, that's alright then.
| craigie b wrote: | point#4 People were crosses as fashion symbols. It is still a religious symbol revered by others. Your point is mute. |
Surely you mean moot.
What's your point? Are you seriously putting across the idea that some people wear the veil as a fashion statement?
You are partially right in that the cross is indeed a religious symbol. The only thing the cross shows, however, is that the person wearing it is a christian (and even then, not necessarily).
The veil stands for a lot more - firstly, nobody who is not a muslim wears it; secondly, it shows that the person beneath it belongs to a family or a background that believes in the covering of women, and thus is in a higher probability of subscribing to the other archaic pillars of islam (of which killing infidels is one) in the same way that a bloke wearing tracky bottoms, a hoody, a burberry cap, rockports and sporting a baboon-like swagger is more likely to spontaneously re-arrange your face one dark night than a 30 year-old man with kids.
| craigie b wrote: | point #5 The whole issue is basically people picking on Muslims as an easy minority to dump the woes of the world onto. I've yet to see anyone put a convincing arguement forward as to why the veil is so offensive. |
I fail to see any point at which anybody remotely attempted to 'dump the woes of the world' onto veiled women.
You fail to see these because you do not agree with the opinions with which they are presented. Which is fine, but one opinion is just as convincing as another (unless of course it is expressed by somebody with personal experience in the matter and without a point to prove)..
Anyway. As interesting as this debate was, time has passed, I think. 
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the warped one: This is a follow up from the thread 'my willy hurts' |
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 16:43 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "Now, I always ensure that a female member of my staff is with me. I explain that this is a country built on freedoms. I defend absolutely the right of any woman to wear a headscarf. As for the full veil, wearing it breaks no laws.
"I go on to say that I think, however, that the conversation would be of greater value if the lady took the covering from her face.
"Indeed, the value of a meeting, as opposed to a letter or phone call, is so that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say. |
straws comments
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5413470.stm
to paraphrse the bbc's site....the fallout
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5411642.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6048896.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6053298.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4742869.stm
The news for a couple of nights then showed various labour MP's supporting his comments and stating the veil should be banned, but this was a completel manipulation of what he said because he only requested it removed when talking to them.
My point was and is, what is the harm in asking someone to remove their veil when talking to them......Its none story, but it has been taking and whipped up into a media frenzy. |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 17:11 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well, in your previous post you stated: "I read very little of it promoting positive discrimination." Now you negate this by way of admitting that every paper has its own agenda? Confused |
When I read the these papers there is nothing like the kind of agenda you would read thrust in your face like per say the sun. However, I accept that it may err on the side of liberal racial views.
| Quote: | Yes, I know. Thus, Mister James has a greater level of experience in the matter. You may argue bias as regards his opinions if you wish, but you are then arguing that your inexperience somehow lends you an insight into the situation that full contact does not. Which is folly. |
Can you please explain how MJ has a greater level of experience in stating the nations experiences of Islam? His opinion on a small demograph is of no more use than mine for summing up the state of a nation. I am not arguing my experience is more valid. I am saying personal experience cannot be used a valid proof for declaring the state of the nation and its views.
| Quote: | You are partially right in that the cross is indeed a religious symbol. |
I'm partially right that the cross is a religious symbol??????
| Quote: | The veil stands for a lot more - firstly, nobody who is not a muslim wears it |
The catholic church has a ceremonial veil, Nuns headress (which in eastern Europe does cover the entire face and body), mormons wear a veil during ceremonies. Then we have marraige veils, hats with veils, Courtesans veils and in west africa the men wear the veil instead of the women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil#Veils_with_religious_significance
one word- pwned
| Quote: | secondly, it shows that the person beneath it belongs to a family or a background that believes in the covering of women, and thus is in a higher probability of subscribing to the other archaic pillars of islam (of which killing infidels is one) |
I can't comment on that, but I've been around enough veil wearers and never felt endangered. In fact, the linking the veil with terrorism is completely unfounded in this country as there has been no example of it ever happening. The only example I can think of female suicide bombers was in chechenya (black widos, named after their husbands being killed by russian forces). Still I feel your point is largely based on fear as you don;t indicate exactly how many people subscrivbe to 'the other archiac pillars of Islam'. I would imagine it is a minority.
| Quote: | I fail to see any point at which anybody remotely attempted to 'dump the woes of the world' onto veiled women. |
Look at how this thread morphed from freedom to wear a veil into a anti muslim thread.
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craigie b
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| pwntifex |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 17:27 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| craigie b wrote: | When I read the these papers there is nothing like the kind of agenda you would read thrust in your face like per say the sun. However, I accept that it may err on the side of liberal racial views. |
As I said, there is a degree of subtlety in The Grauniad/Independent, the likes of which you would expect from a broadsheet. This does not in any way affect its bias, however.
| craigie b wrote: | Can you please explain how MJ has a greater level of experience in stating the nations experiences of Islam? His opinion on a small demograph is of no more use than mine for summing up the state of a nation. I am not arguing my experience is more valid. I am saying personal experience cannot be used a valid proof for declaring the state of the nation and its views. |
He has a greater level of experience in dealing with and being around ethnic minorities, and due to his living in London for an extended period of time I would say that, yes, he has a pretty good idea of how the country is in terms of racial / 'multi-cultural' mixing.
| craigie b wrote: | I'm partially right that the cross is a religious symbol?????? |
No. You are partially right in that the cross is a religious symbol. It is not a particularly complicated sentence.
As in, while you are correct that the cross is a religious symbol, whatever else you said that accompanied that statement was wrong.
| craigie b wrote: |
The catholic church has a ceremonial veil, Nuns headress (which in eastern Europe does cover the entire face and body), mormons wear a veil during ceremonies. Then we have marraige veils, hats with veils, Courtesans veils and in west africa the men wear the veil instead of the women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil#Veils_with_religious_significance
one word- pwned
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..None of which are worn in public, or as you said are ceremonial. If they cover the face / body, they are worn out of tradition and not with the sole intent of covering the women for negative effect (though I can't speak for Eastern Europe; hardly see how that is relevant in a discussion about the UK, though).
These veils are veils in the same way that an H-Bomb is an explosive.
Besides which, we are talking of the muslim veil - I do not believe we ever brought any other type of veil into the discussion.
Thus permit me to engage in a little QFT/H:
| craigie b wrote: | one word- pwned |
| craigie b wrote: |
I can't comment on that, but I've been around enough veil wearers and never felt endangered. |
You have admitted to never having lived in areas with many minorities. How? Besides which, with your outlook, why should you?
| craigie b wrote: | In fact, the linking the veil with terrorism is completely unfounded in this country as there has been no example of it ever happening. |
It is simply impossible to extricate the veil from terrorism. For pity's sake, not everything is oblique: it is not that these women themselves would blow themselves up, but that they belong to a family or background in which such behaviour is permissable.
| craigie b wrote: | Still I feel your point is largely based on fear as you don;t indicate exactly how many people subscrivbe to 'the other archiac pillars of Islam'. I would imagine it is a minority. |
I am not saying that there are a majority of muslims in the UK who subscribe to these medieval ideals. What I am saying is that, of those women who wear the veil, the majority will come from families or backgrounds who do.
| craigie b wrote: | Look at how this thread morphed from freedom to wear a veil into a anti muslim thread. |
Opinions have been voiced, opinions that in the grand scheme of things mean very little. By no means do I see that as proof of anybody 'dumping the woes of the world' on anybody else.
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the warped one: This is a follow up from the thread 'my willy hurts' |
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 18:11 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | e has a greater level of experience in dealing with and being around ethnic minorities, and due to his living in London for an extended period of time I would say that, yes, he has a pretty good idea of how the country is in terms of racial / 'multi-cultural' mixing.
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I lived in the Asian area of Middlesbrough for five years, in what the locals called little india. I've worked in Bradford for a few months and also in Leeds.
Using london as a indicator is garbage since London is unique when compared to the rest of the country.
My point still stands. One mans opinion does not reflect the state of the nation.
| Quote: | No. You are partially right in that the cross is a religious symbol. It is not a particularly complicated sentence.
As in, while you are correct that the cross is a religious symbol, whatever else you said that accompanied that statement was wrong. |
The cross is a religious symbol period. Just like the swastika is a Buddhist symbol. If people choose to wear it ignorantly it does not detract from it origins. But this completely off tangent.
Tp remind you what you said about veils.....
| Quote: | The veil stands for a lot more - firstly, nobody who is not a muslim wears it |
Regardless of when the other types of veil are worn, they are used in other cultures and religions. More over the catholic one is still used in hardline catholic followers, in public, it is just not commonly seen.
| Quote: | These veils are veils in the same way that an H-Bomb is an explosive. |
prove it....I yet to read anything that states the veil is a sign of hatred towards the west.
| Quote: | Besides which, we are talking of the muslim veil - I do not believe we ever brought any other type of veil into the discussion. |
I was talking about wearing a piece of clothing, you insisted the veil was more than just a piece of cloth. You said no one else wore a veil, I pointed out many other cultures use them.
| Quote: | You have admitted to never having lived in areas with many minorities. How? Besides which, with your outlook, why should you? |
I stated that I live in York and my hometown is in scotland. I never admitted to only living in areas that were largely white orientated. Nor did I bother to mention my hometown is hosting to shed loads of Eastern Europeans. I have my fair share of experience.
| Quote: | It is simply impossible to extricate the veil from terrorism. For pity's sake, not everything is oblique: it is not that these women themselves would blow themselves up, but that they belong to a family or background in which such behaviour is permissable.
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Once again I have never seen anything to suggest what you are saying. I recall the London bombers parents being dressed normally when interviewed.
From doing a quick search on google I've found nothing to suggest the veil and terror have connections. At most its stated that its used to opress women. I'd give credit to that.
So your veil terror theory seems like fantasy, unless you can share a link.
| Quote: | What I am saying is that, of those women who wear the veil, the majority will come from families or backgrounds who do. |
Once again I ask where you derive these theories from.
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 18:25 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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pwntifex, lets just assume your veil theory is true and the veil indicates they come from a pro terrorist family....Is removing the veil going to promote security?
Or would it just make the terrorists harder to find? I mean if the veil is an indication to a families allegence to terror I would have thought it better to keep em on. Hell, show who you are. It would save MI5 heaps of cash |
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pwntifex
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| Posted: 19:16 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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| G wrote: | Veil is mentioned and some pretty serious views are brought up pretty quickly, discussing a whole culture and how it should be removed from our lives. |
This thread is a split from the previous thread in which the veil in the Qu'ran was discussed. As long as opinions are considered and valid then they are not knee-jerk by nature. Personally, I have disliked the veil since it first scared the bejesus out of me aged 6.
I do not agree with some of the opinions brought up here, but I do agree that the veil should not be allowed. We (or at least I, I'm not going to speak for anyone else) were discussing integration.
The point is that you cannot bring your culture over to a new country and expect to establish it there. If I came round to your house for a meal, I expect you would be mildly disturbed/offended were I to burp loudly upon finishing, yet German friends would not bat an eyelid.
There are aspects of culture that should remain in their indigenous countries, and the veil is one of them; this is not a country where oppression of women is tolerated.
| G wrote: | But what about in a public place?
Should I be allowed to wear what I want, or should I only wear what society dictates I wear?
What if society decides wearing motorcycle styled clothing is unacceptable?
Or even riding bikes altogether (as some people in important places seem to).
I don't know enough about the traditions and ways the veil is used.
I do know there's again a large range of ways that it is. In a similar manner to the way people in England dress - from those that are happy to walk around in a pair of swimming trunks and flip flops to those that would be horrified to be seen outside without a shirt and tie. |
Last time I looked, nobody foisted motorcycle clothing on their women to hide them from view, they were not a symbol of religion and, furthermore, they were not used as a weapon against other cultures.
Let's not fool ourselves; motorcycle clothing is there to ensure that we do not grate ourselves to death when we crash. It is important safety clothing, as toe-capped boots and hard hats are for builders.
Nobody is impinging on your right to wear shorts. What we are trying to say is that to allow the veil in our schools, shops, even our streets - is tantamount to endorsing the oppression of women, which is the sole original purpose of existence for the veil, and accepting yet another cultural work-over by muslims who refuse to integrate. Our women are free to wear bikinis or not - to wear trousers, or not - we do not hide them because we are not a culturally medieval.
Stop trying to pass the veil off as a piece of fashion, because it is a silly argument that will go nowhere fast. Nobody is removing your civil liberties, nobody is trying to tell you what to wear. What we are saying is that we do not tolerate intolerance - and will certainly not allow a cultural invasion, the likes of which we are seeing occur - albeit subtly - more and more often as the days pass.
However, we are now simply rehashing the same points and going nowhere.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, and however much I disagree with it, I am glad at least that you have considered it and that you are willing for it to be discussed.
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craigie b
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| Posted: 19:56 - 19 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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pwntifex,
I should have amended my statement to say
Taking the Jihab off is not a ridiculous request in certain occasions. Wearing one in public is entirely the individuals choice.
| Quote: | No, but that's not why I want it gone. |
Then why do you want it gone?
| Quote: | No harder to find than it is now.
Just because somebody agrees and/or sympathises with Al-Qaeda doesn't mean they are terrorists. |
So now the jihab is a sign of being a sympathiser with Al Quaeda? The Jahib is centuries old. Al Quaeda formed in the eighties. Just because I wear a kilt on occasions does not mean I hate the English for past atrocities.
| Quote: | What we are trying to say is that to allow the veil in our schools, shops, even our streets - is tantamount to endorsing the oppression of women |
Its only oppression if the woman does not want to wear it. I'll agree that some Muslim women will be forced to wear it but do you really believe banning the Jahib will sort the root of the domestic problem you are touting? Do you really believe government intervention in an age old culture is the root to solving what amounts to a domestic issue?
If that truly was what you were concerned about then you would be supporting an idea that actually had some merit and would offer Muslim women a degree of protection and support. Removing the Jahib would merely be a means for you to say 'look how great we are in the west, we help socially liberate Muslim women' but if they were really suffering from domestic abuse/oppression then removing the veil is a very small token gesture at the expense of others who want to wear it as a mark of respect for their culture.
| Quote: | Stop trying to pass the veil off as a piece of fashion, because it is a silly argument that will go nowhere fast |
Fashion can be defined as “a common style especially of dress during a particular time or among a certain group”. I would imagine that the jihab fits this description very well. Its silly to state that it isn’t.
| Quote: | The fact that we are objectively discussing this indicates that our (personal) reactions are not wholly reactive. |
If you could present us with some facts to support your Jihab = Al Queda sympathiser, or the Jihab = terrorist theories then I think it would be fair to call this objective. Until then you’re presenting baseless conspiracy. |
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killa
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| Posted: 07:57 - 20 Oct 2006 Post subject: |
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I half agree with what Pwntifex is saying, Craig you have some valid points on the veil subject but you have to stop generalising the ‘whiteys’ and look at the bigger picture. The veils you mentioned above are not worn out on the streets, in teaching or what ever, it’s ceremonial.
Anyone who is dedicated to the Islam faith will want to look the part, in this case, the veil has been targeted, not for what it means to the wearer but for many factors, this has led yet again to, integration.
I guarantee you that any Muslim who is dedicated to the faith on such a level dislikes the way you live. From what they’ve learnt, you are the scum of the earth and live no better than vermin, or something to that effect.
For some people of Britain, this is a worrying concept, and something that is open to attack, confusion and paranoia.
My sister tells me a lot about the Muslim faith as her husband is one, IMO the veil conceals and hides things, that’s the way I’ve been brought up to think and that’s how I deal with it, in my country. I don’t want to be told I need to keep up with the times, this veil bollox is ancient and as cute as it is, in Britain it’s as helpful as a blind astronaut.
There was a statement in the BBC pages you linked me to that said “Muslims and non Muslims are tired of seeing things about Muslims in the media” Yeah, me to, but unfortunately there are enough of them causing some sort of shit for us to notice and with the current state of West VS East battle, every little helps, including, getting used to life in Britain.
I know it’s been said time and time again, but they are allowed to come over here and have a better life, because let’s face it, if you live in the East, Britain is (was) a much fairer place.
The Muslims have called for yet again, a public apology from Jack for something which even you said Craig, is a valid thing to suggest, sorry but who gave them the fucking right to ask that from someone who is part of the very runnings of the country that welcomed them here?
IMO they should have someone who could talk publicly about the issues, not say to us, “All Muslims are offended now, say sorry”
On a side note, the links you posted first said, no complaints had come from the kids or the parents, and then in another report they had said something. To me this would make a big difference because it means a multi race class of kids possibly less than 10 years old said something about her veil, they were described as complaints.
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Bike:- Yamaha TRX850 | Killas Biking History | Killas Gaming History | Killas autmotive history |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 19 years, 59 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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