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topgun
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: 2 stroke oil Reply with quote
hi,just got scooter 2 stroke. do i go for syntheic or not ,don't know what 2 stroke oil is in now or will it not make diffrance if the oil that;s in now is not synthetic Confused thanks,mark
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irving
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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irving
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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irving
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PostPosted: 17:28 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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irving
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fully Synthetic is only really needed when your bike spends a lot of time up near the red line, which I guess it would in a de restricted scooter, but all the same I dont think it would be under very much of a load.

I'd say semi-synthetic will be perfectly fine for you, odds are you are up near the red line every so often but arent all the time, because scooters do have slow acceleration (I know used to own one)

if you are say on a restricted 50, you could even get away with mineral, as you wont be spending very much time near the red line.

But id say semi synth is the best for you,
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irving
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Jebus
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Irving, you will start to rival kickstart for the world of info that you have. I agree with that you say, cheap 2 stroke such a bad idea and no matter what the man down the pub says strimmer oil is very different to castrols finest.

You had quite a cool post on wd-40 maybe one on why you should use fully synthetic stuff might convince them that its a good idea.
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
irving wrote:
It is not just to do with the red line and engine load mate. There is a lot more to it than that I am afraid. There are many reasons why you should only use fully synthetic in most modern two stroke engines. I listed a few above, maybe you did not read the rest of the thread though. Your choice Thumbs Up .


I'm just going on what I know, I ran a derestricted 50cc on semi synthetic oil for a year, I know the person who bought it off me (is also running it on semi synth) and has had no engine issues, just a suspension failure, but thats nothing to do with the 2 stroke Wink

I find semi synthetic more than good for my nsr, I dont thrash the thing, and yeh the engines perfectly fine.

If I was going to race the bike I think I'd want fully synth. But I dont see why I should pay over twice the price for fully synthetic when I cant really see what it does?
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irving
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
irving wrote:
Ok, The NSR has been around donkeys years. Apart from the very latest models it is an old engine design, semi synthetic would be adequate. Modern scooters should always be run on fully synthetic 2 stroke. There are very good reasons for this! Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that the stuff is too expensive. Why should you pay twice the price? Unfortunately for us the consumer there is a difference between the two types of oil, and in the case of the most modern engines they have us by the balls I am afraid Sad . Like I said earlier on if you choose to use semi in your modern 2 stroke engine (especially in the case of scooters) you do risk long term problems. I too am speaking from what I know and have first hand experience of these problems from my time in the dealership. Have actually seen some models start playing around fairly quickly after the semi was introduced. Also worth bearing in mind is that if the manufacturer specifies fully for your new scooter and you use semi this could affect your warranty with regards to any engine claims if they are made aware. I am glad your nsr is running well, although I do seem to recall you mentioning in another thread that it seized up a little while ago, maybe this was a different bike. You got it sorted though obviously, that is what matters! Thumbs Up .


granted the engine did sieze, however that was due to my oil pump failing, there was an air bubble in the line, a problem that (According to the workshop manual) was quite a common issue, didnt really have anything to do with the type of oil I'd been using (unless semi synth has air bubbles ? Wink)

Ive got the old piston next to me, apart from where it over heated and welded itself to the barrel, its in perfectly good condition, bit of a carbon build up on the head but good otherwise.
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irving
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
irving wrote:
Wow, quick off the mark there! Shocked

I did agree that semi is ok for your bike, if it is not of the latest ilk. I did not suggest that all 2strokes require fully synthetic, but some do! I did not suggest that the oil did cause your engine seizure, but consider that the 2 stroke oil performs many jobs in the engine including the lubrication of the oil pump itself, and as you know, they can fail! I have seen the problems that can be caused first hand, many many times and I could go into very involved reasons as to the differences between the two oils and their applications etc, but i will refrain. Obviously I can't make you understand what I am saying, I am just passing on what I know from my time as senior technician in an Aprilia / Piaggio dealership. people are free to use whatever they wish, of course Thumbs Up Wink .


I do see what you are saying, but I really cant see how much of a difference the oil types really make, I view it like the difference between 97 and 95 unleaded, you pay more for one than the other, and again I cant see the benefits of using it (and I have tried).

Im by no means a 2 stroke expert, Ive only ever taken apart one 2 stroke engine so I got a lot to go Wink
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irving
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
irving wrote:
ncrn wrote:

I do see what you are saying, but I really cant see how much of a difference the oil types really make, I view it like the difference between 97 and 95 unleaded, you pay more for one than the other, and again I cant see the benefits of using it (and I have tried).

Im by no means a 2 stroke expert, Ive only ever taken apart one 2 stroke engine so I got a lot to go Wink


Ok, geezer. I know what you are saying. The stuff is a rip off! It does not need to be that expensive at all! I agree. Trust me there are differences even if they are not immediately obvious. If you are running an older engine you may not see the benefits. I say what I say because of my time in the trade and with the latest engines I know it does matter. For example many direct injection models have problems with semi. There is a bit more to it than the difference between 95 & 97 Very Happy , honestly:up: .


^^, is it some kind of molecular difference between the oils then?
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irving
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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irving
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:31 - 23 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
ncrn wrote:
I view it like the difference between 97 and 95 unleaded, you pay more for one than the other, and again I cant see the benefits of using it (and I have tried).


If you use 95 RON in an engine that requires 97 RON then you are likely to suffer detonation, with a high chance of burning a hole in a piston. Use 97 RON in an engine that only requires 95 RON and you have zero benefit at all (indeed, probably a tiny loss of power).

Aprilia do specify a synthetic 2 squeak oil for their modern scooters. Remember that the modern dtech scooters use a far smaller amount of oil than older engines.

All the best

Keith
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irving
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 24 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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irving
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 24 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
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