Lead Acid Batteries - Why?

[Cillit-BANG]

Why is it that motorbikes still use lead acid batteries when there are far lighter, smaller and more sophisticad battery types out there? The additional cost isn't that significant surely when your talking about £6-9K worth of bike.

When every kilo counts in the current sports bike war, why not save a couple of kilo's and use something like Li-ion cells instead? It could also free up some valuable under seat storage space.

Do race bikes have better batteries?

The reason I wonder is that I'm looking at running a total-loss track bike and was thinking out-loud about using smaller and better batteries designed to last maybe an hour at a time and keeping 3-4 with me for track days.

Cillit

[lilredmachine]

Because the technology is unsafe at the best of times. Could you imagine the lawsuits if an l-ion cell exploded in a crash and burned someone? I race RC, and use a concrete chamber to charge Li-po cells, if they go up they are like napalm.
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[finpos]

One word -

CHEAPER!

Your modern, more esoteric batteries use expensive materials and manufacturing techniques. Also, they often need much more sophisticated charging systems - Lead acid batteries are pretty robust.

finpos.

[Aikman666]

I think theres Gel batteries on the go now that are quite light, though i could be wrong. Stab in the dark here but its probably that most bikes are used through summer and not so much in winter and the lead acid batteries last better through the time of disuse? Other than that its probably just a way of saving money for the bike companies.
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Will work for petrol
My Design Blog

[Cillit-BANG]

Why do you use a concrete chamber to charge your batteries? Li-ion batteries can't be that volotile when being charged, my mobile phone has never gone boom, nor have the other Li-ion cells I regularly charge.

How explosive is a matchbox sized Li-Ion battery if one was in a crash?

Seems like a lot of potential being wasted.

How much more sohisticated is the charging system?

[lilredmachine]

I charge Lithium Polymer cells in a concrete chamber. It's just a precaution, i take it you've seen what happens to an incorrectly charged cell? Dell has recently had to recall a large number of batteries as they are spontaneously combusting under load, not something you want to happen when you are going along on a bike!

Here is a list of accidents caused by this technology, from one model forum:

FIRE DURING CHARGING:
Operator Error-
9s pack catches fire while being charged at 10s setting. (9)
2s pack catches fire being charged as 3s (10)
2s pack catches fire when charged at 3s setting (13)
2s pack catches fire in plane while charging at 3s setting. (22)
3s pack charged at 4s voltage ignites (27)
2s pack catches fire charged at 3s (30)
2s pack ignites when charged at 10.2V (31)
Overcharged battery (34)
2s pack charged at 11.1V catches fire. (36)
2s pack charged at 3s setting (40)
2s pack charges at 11.1V burns – (44)
2s charged at 11.2V goes off in garage – (47)
2s charged at 3s voltage ignites in garage – (49)
2s charged at 3s ignites in workshop – (52)
Another count problem – Heli burns (57)
Cell count error caused fire – (61, 62)
Pack charged on NiCd setting - (66)
Run Down pack catches fire during charge – (71)
LiPo Burns during charge on 109 charger after mode mis-set (82)
Charging slightly swelled pack causes fire (86)
Li-Ion cells catch fire from charger setting error (88)
Cell catches fire during attempt to repeak - (91)
Charging puffed cell causes it to ignite – (93)
Lipo burns during attempt to restore overdischarged cell with CC/CV PS (94)
Pack ignites during charging – smoke corrodes shed and contents (98)
Possible damaged pack burns like rocket in can – (100)
Attempt to recharge dead lipo causes plane fire (103)
Charging probably fully charged 3s pack with Astro 109 result in pack ignition. (104)
2s charged as 3s ignites in safe (109)
Restart of charger resulted in wrong charge mode – (113)
Wrong charger settings burns 2 packs – (112)
LiPo burns in modelers hand after charging - (115)
Charging slightly puffed cell causes fire, plane burns (117)
Using NiCd setting causes LiPo fire. Owner forgot to switch over to LiPo setting during charge cycle (118)
Charger set on 4 cells with 3 cell pack (126)
Garage fire during charging (127)
Modeler reports 2 lipo fires from wrong cell count (129)
Lipo charged on NiCd setting ignites (130)
Auto cell count charger fire – (131)
5s2p4000 packs ignites on first charge (133)
Overvoltage charge ignition – (135)
Lipo ignites during charge causing house fire – possible charger setting error. (139).
Too high charge rate burns battery (142)

Undetermined Cause While Charging
Fire damages garage while charging pack. (7)
1500 3s pack catches fire during 1A , 11.1V initial charge. (1)
2 cell pack ignites while being charged with 2 cell charger. (11)
Car burns when pack being charged in car catches fire. (24)
2s2p pack catches fire in helicopter – possible that charger misread # of cells. (25)
2s pack ignites while on charger set for 2s. (28)
$30,000 damage to house when pack ignites during charging. (no details) (43)
3s pack burns in garage – (35)
3s pack burns at correct settings- (41)
3s pack burns at correct charger settings – (46)
3s 8000mah pack catches fire after 15min – correct settings – (53)
Helicopter and pack burns after 15min charge – (54)
Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (55)
Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (56)
Lipo rockets across room (58)
Automatic cell count charger – Lipos burn in garage (59)
Battery ignites in car seat during charging (63)
Damaged battery ignites during charge (67)
Pack balloons during charge, burns while under water (68)
11s3p pack burns during charging at correct parameters (70)
Another charging fire – (72)
Helicopter burns when LiPo ignites during charge (73)
Undetermined cause to LiPo fire during charge – (74)
Chopper burns from charging LiPo fire (76)
House fire (81)
3s Pack Ignites burning front of car during charge at correct settings. (83)
Helicopter in garage burns while charging (106)
Well used Lipo ignites under correct charging parameters (107)
SUV Vehicle burns (114)
Garage burns during charging – (119) Extensive pictures
2 fiires in 2 weeks (120)
Charging battery in plane fire with 109 – posts 97&99 (121)
Charging 3000mah with Triton catches fire in garage- (122)
Pack in plane ignites while being charged under hood of truck (123)
Fire in Basement – (136)
Lipo catches fire during charging and continues to burn in salt water (138)
Lipo charging in Helicopter ignites burning carpet, drapes and Heli (141)



FIRE FROM PACK DAMAGE:
Cell poked with exacto knife catches fire- (2)
Dog bites pack, pack catches fire (4)
Lexus burns after pack from crashed plane put in car. (8)
Ballooned pack ignites when punctured. (20)
Repaired pack catches fire when connected to plane. (29)
Pack catches fire after plane crashes. (37)
Pack cut while shrink wrapping (39)
Pack punctured during crash burns. (64)
Plane crashes, pack removed and 10 minutes later burns (65)
Battery pack at 1V ignites while charging (71)
Puffed pack ignites during charging – (77)
Puffed Pack smokes when punctured (79)
Nicked pack catches fire (87)
Plane crashes, battery catches fire (89)
Damaged pack catches fire – (90)
Dog chews pack, chars pillow and smokes house - (95)
Battery compartment screw penetrates pack causing loss of plane (102)
Pack balloons dring mischarge, ignites when punchured (108)
Pack ignites 20 min after Heli crash – (111)\
Nicked pack “explodes in modelers hand” (116)
Intentionally punctured LiPo burns (124)
Dented Heli pack burns i min after disconnecting- (137)
Poked Lipo burst into flame (140)


BATTERY SHORTED FIRES:
Shorted pack catches fire (26)
Pack burns after shorting (15)
Possible Short (38)
Shorted when moved on table – (42)
Pack Shorted putting connector on and burns – (45)
Shorted pack burns hole in BMW seat – (48)
Crash causes 3s pack to short and burn – (50)
Pack ignites sometime after connector shorted for a short time (85)
Lipo Shorted for 4 sec. 3 min later it burns (143)


CAUSE UNDETERMINED:
Multi cell pack catches fire in flight (5)
Possible over discharge (33)
Lipo pack catches fire in car (60)
2s pack starts house fire (84)
In flight F3A fire reported (92)
New pack partially burns sitting on desk (96)
Pack ignites with no known cause (97)
Pack ignites after soldering wires on (101)
Pack catches fire in pick up truck (105)
In Air ignition – (125)
Pack ignites in pocket (132)
Pack ignites in car at 3AM (134)

OTHER
2s pack connected in series with 3s pack ignites in fireball (78)
Lipo burns garage (99)
Packs used in parallel catch fire in flight (110)
Too high current draw causes fire (128)

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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[lilredmachine]

[Cillit-BANG]

What about Ni-cad?

Fairly basic, but certainly lighter for track use.

The are millions of mobile phones running ok, surely the technology is there for Li-ion?

Interesting post BTW

[Cillit-BANG]

But for race type use, all the charging would done off the bike anyway.

[Visitor Q]

[Cillit-BANG]

I'm now getting paranoid that I may be better charging my phone away from home

[Cillit-BANG]

Holy crap, my last Li-ion phone battery was chewed to bits by our dog

[lilredmachine]

Ni-cd would work, perhaps a better bet would be Ni-Mh, no memory as such. Mobile phones do not draw much current, it is with recent developements in high end laptops that we have begun to discover the limits of the technology, overstressing the batteries will make them combust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ0SNESIkWk

this is a good video, shows a couple of explosions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOMfdH76oi0&mode=related&search=

another one... even better.
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[brooky]

Quality vid
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Suzuki GSX-R 750 K6.

[Zimbo]

I suspect the main reason we're still using lead acid batteries is down to rate of charge / discharge, I doubt Li-Ion batteries would stand a 7 amp charge input for long, and the current draw of turning the engine over is fairly high.

[mrtEE]

[stinkwheel]

Also, in theory, a motorcycle battery is never fully discharged. They spend their life in a constant state of being partially discharged then topped up again. A lead acid battery will cope with this.

Plug your mobile phone into the charger after every call and see how long the battery lasts.

[carvell]

Your phone battery (li-ion) will last a lot, lot longer if you charge it after every call. Lithium ion batteries do not have a memory effect, and the more it's discharged, the less time it'll last.

Bikes don't use lithium ion because of the very complex charging circuitry needed. You can't simply lamp 7 amps off an alternator and rectifier across it to charge it. Plus li-ion are much more expensive.

Also, if it works, why fix it?
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Yamaha TDM 850

[colin1]

as mentioned gel batteries are in use as well as lead acid ones on bikes

my tt600 has a gel one, and i think my yp250 might have one too
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[lilredmachine]

[Arfdog]

As stinky said, the battery acts as a tank, being topped up and discharged all the time. The loading on the battery can be very high, and leac acid has a good capability to supply large currents without significant voltage drops. Other batteries aren't as good as this. Also, bang together some high capacity nicads AA cells. 10 in series to get 12V, 4 such packs in parallel to get 4 Ampere hour rating (assuming 1Ah each). There will be little difference between this pack and a 12V 4Ah lead acid battery in terms of weigh, the lead acid batt will cost a tenth of the NiCad pack, and the Lead acid battery will work better on top of it all.

For a total loss bike, forget batteries and use a supercapacitor instead.

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-XTREME-AUDIO-POWER-CAPACITOR-1-2-FARAD-CAP_W0QQitemZ120044201813QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14931QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Kram]

Can I just ask... What do you mean when batteries have memories?
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FS1E -> SR125 -> CB400N -> CB650 -> FZR600 Genises -> VFR400 NC21 -> CBR900RR Fireblade -> Renault Clio 1.4

[Arfdog]

It happens with NiCad batterries.

Take a new, 100% charged cell. Assume flat is at 30%. Use it to power your Rampant Rabbit (tm) for a couple of hours, and discharge the batteries to 70% discharged, then chuck them in the charger anyway, even though they are not totally dead. After recharging to 100%, do the same thing again. After a few times, the battery 'remembers' the 100% down to 70% range that you typically use them in, and you'll find that if you have an extra long session with your rabbit, the batteries will go flat real quick after discharging past the 70% mark. So now, the battery that used to be flat at 30% charge, is flat at 65% charge, so you have lost nearly half of the batteries capability by not completely discharging before recharging during use.

NiMh batteries don't suffer this problem, and LiIon batteries don't show this affect at all. So it's safe to top up your mobile phone and not have to worry about this, if it has LiIon batteries, which unless its ancient, it probably does.
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I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[lilredmachine]

Bang on, a memory is precisely that. Every battery has a mah rating, usually between 1000-12000. A badly charged ni-cd cell could lose half of it's capacity, when charged one of my ancient 1800 nicd cells for an old car the other day, i found that it had flattened at 1200 mah, about 700 mah earlier than usual.
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.