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Student tortured at an American uni

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Paivi
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obviously they'd been better trained than this guy in New Zealand:

ABC News Online wrote:
Clumsy NZ policeman stuns himself

A clumsy New Zealand policeman, who was attending a domestic dispute, accidentally shot himself and a teenager with a stun gun.

The constable was loading his weapon - to stun a man at the centre of the incident - when he accidentally blasted himself with the Taser's 50,000 volts, the New Zealand Herald reports.

Another shot hit the man's 16-year-old son.

After five attempts to hit the man, the officer eventually used pepper spray. But he succeeded only in hitting the man's 21-year-old daughter - an unintended target.

The wanted man eventually gave himself up.


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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
TheDonUK wrote:
Arguing in favour of the behaviour shown in that video is failing to distinguish between freedom and oppression (specifically state oppression), that or being in favour of it.


Or, you could say it's simply having a different opinion on the matter to you. I'm always wary of such absolute statements, especially when made on the basis of so little evidence, and so much assumption.
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
TheDonUK wrote:
Arguing in favour of the behaviour shown in that video is failing to distinguish between freedom and oppression (specifically state oppression), that or being in favour of it.

Erm, wasn't it UNI 'police'; if so, have they got anything to do with the state?
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
They're all in it together G! These damn universities, trying to teach kids stuff!

*shakes fist*
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Louise
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Asking him to stand up after being shocked Shocked Middle Finger
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TheDonUK
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
TheDonUK wrote:
Arguing in favour of the behaviour shown in that video is failing to distinguish between freedom and oppression (specifically state oppression), that or being in favour of it.

Erm, wasn't it UNI 'police'; if so, have they got anything to do with the state?


No, Which makes that video even worse, its thugs dressed up as play cops dishing out the oppression...

If it were the police my argument would be the same.
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tokarev
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree that the tazering was bad.

In my uni, we are supposed to display the uni student / staff cards (ID) at all times. No one ever does though. But when on the university premises one could be asked to show ID at any time (this never happens though). It is the 'rules' of the university. Rules that every student and staff had to agree to before becoming a member of the university.

What I expect would happen in my uni, is that if I refused to show ID, then I would be escorted off the university premises rather than having the shit beaten out of me. I believe that is what should have been done in the American uni (escorted from the premises rather than tazering).

Obviously if one becomes violent then alternate measures would have to be taken (but repeat tazering is not what I would have in mind).

Now, if someone asked for ID on the street for no reason, then I agree this is a different matter, as I am on public property rather than privately owned premises. I would object to being asked for ID. If then I was to be beaten or tazered or CS gas was to be used on me then obviously there is something very wrong with 'state'.
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Silver
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PostPosted: 23:45 - 20 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Un-fucking-believeable.

There's what, three "policemen" there? They've walked up to a high school kid and asked him to produce ID and he's refused. No doubt this pissed them off no end. So, what is the genuine argument in favour of the tazering? That he might set off a bomb? Christ.

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not he should be allowed to refuse... let's assume that he should have to produce ID when asked. Are you seriously telling me that three men couldn't restrain a school kid in any other way? How many do they need before they can? Five? Ten? Jeez, what if there had been two kids, would they have just shot them?

I'm not especially violent, but if that happened to me I'd be be seeing these guys late at night with a crow bar and a blow torch.

Sacked and prosecuted is the best that they should be able to hope for.
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
phantomtek wrote:


It's like that Brazilian guy that ran away when he saw coppers, it's the same with not showing ID, if you don't do it you are going to look suspicious, schools are having a big crackdown on not having/showing your ID because of the amount of people that cause trouble, for example shootings and in lower schools peadofiles, and the fact that he is from the Middle East only makes it worse for him as people hold the preconception (not me, but most Americans) that all Middle Eastern people are terrorists. If he had just got up when they asked or at least said that he would instead of aggravating the police then he would have been ok.



Charles Demenzes did not run away from the police or jump over a barrier. They restrained him and shot him in the back of the head eight times. And just like that little story that they made up, everybody having to show their ID all of the time will not protect us from the bogie man. Yes it is only 20 seconds of your time to pull out some ID, but the fact is we shouldn't have to, can't you see that? Its not pig headedness or being a 'ponce', that video is a warning to us on what direction this country is going in.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 21:05 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
mr jamez wrote:
[

Charles Demenzes did not run away from the police or jump over a barrier. They restrained him and shot him in the back of the head eight times. And just like that little story that they made up,



They being the several eye-witnesses totally un-related to the police who I remember being interviewed at the time, all supporting the above?

There is enough unpleasantness and blame to go around from that incident without you making up more - just like 'they'.

Quote:

everybody having to show their ID all of the time will not protect us from the bogie man. Yes it is only 20 seconds of your time to pull out some ID, but the fact is we shouldn't have to, can't you see that? Its not pig headedness or being a 'ponce', that video is a warning to us on what direction this country is going in.


What a load of tripe.

Linking a poorly-documented incident with no evidence of the causal factors, based on private property with no background story, to OMGFZA !23!! We're sleepwalking into 1984/Children of Men/V for Vendetta all rolled into one!

For the record, whatever you political stance, grandstanding to the crowd when you realise that the police mean business is not only pig-headed and poncey, it's just plain dumb.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know how universities work in the United States but if it's anything like here you essentially sign a contract saying that you will provide ID if needed.

This isn't a state law, this is rules for the university.

I absolutely agree the Tazering was completely unnecessary however what would the reaction of the forum be if the headline on tomorrows news was "Intruder bombs US university?"

I am in no way a supporter of state-wide presentation or compulsion to have an ID card, but in an establishment like a university where you choose to study and sign a legally binding contract that you will present ID at all times. Sticking it to the man could lead to dire consequences.

I would however like to re-iterate that I do not condone the use of tazers at all and it was completely wrong and I indeed stuggled to watch that video through. That and the camera work was absolutely dreadful. Wink
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


Linking a poorly-documented incident with no evidence of the causal factors, based on private property with no background story, to OMGFZA !23!! We're sleepwalking into 1984/Children of Men/V for Vendetta all rolled into one!



We will soon have a system where carrying ID is compulsory. And it will become compulsory to show that ID when it is demanded by anybody in authority. So yes that is a warning as it shows what could happen if police or people in positions of authority are given the power to demand ID. Hardly an irrational OMFG 1984 moment Mister James.
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

There is enough unpleasantness and blame to go around from that incident without you making up more - just like 'they'.

Not sure which bits you're suggesting he made up, but what happened according to wikipedia, which I tend to trust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
With citations.

Quote:
What a load of tripe.

When the UK I believe has the most CCTV cameras per head or something; 1984, or some private-corporate equivalent, is something we should be discussing.
I believe there is about 1 camera per 14 people in the UK.


On the other side, if he'd agreed to terms and conditions that said he could only use those facilities if he had to show ID, then it's his own fault; though of course it's reasonable to expect not to get Tazered.
However cops, security or others in authority beating people up; it's hardly a new thing and something people seem to want to do anything useful about.


Resisting obviously served a very good purpose for his part - he was further abused which presumably ensured international coverage, shown to possibly billions of people over the world.
Seems quite an intelligent and brave way to get your point accross, playing on the security being dumb.
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 21:28 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


They being the several eye-witnesses totally un-related to the police who I remember being interviewed at the time, all supporting the above?

There is enough unpleasantness and blame to go around from that incident without you making up more - just like 'they'.



From what I remember there were plenty of leaked official documents, from places like the IPCC which shows the total incompetence of the police and why they tried to cover the story up. And I am not suprised the people not linked to the police tell a different version of the story, considering the met chief was in serious doo doo. I'm pretty sure it was just a tragic accident, but the way they try to hide the truth when they end up killing some poor sod is disgusting.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
So why are you trying to hide the truth?

The story that he jumped the turnstile and ran away from the police originated from civilian eye-witnesses, so I say again, don't make an unpleasant situation worse by building a purely fictional situation and then being outraged by it.

There were indeed attempts to avoid blame by the police, but that's hardly surprising, especially given the propensity of people like yourself to make more of things than they should!
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G
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Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The pathologist's post mortem report, which was written in the presence of senior police officers five days after the shooting, recorded that Jean “vaulted over the ticket barriers” and that he “ran down the stairs of the tube station”. By this time the police knew that this version of events was incorrect.

They being the police, who were at least aware of such things and not contradicting such when written on official documents?

Trying to defend the police when their actions are fairly obviously at least to some degree corrupt makes people question more and makes this unpleasant situation worse Wink.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I didn't deny for a second that some of the police were playing fast and loose with the truth - I simply stated that Mr Jamez was telling porkies.
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
So why are you trying to hide the truth?


There are things I know for sure they have lied about, and other things that I believe they are lying about ie what some of the eye witnesses have described. I'm not the one who has anything to lose from telling the truth, or in my case expressing my opinion along with facts

Mister James wrote:

The story that he jumped the turnstile and ran away from the police originated from civilian eye-witnesses, so I say again, don't make an unpleasant situation worse by building a purely fictional situation and then being outraged by it.


Well from a quick look around, it seems it wasn't just eye witnesses that brought the police to realise (admit) that he did not jump the barrier. The only people who built a purely fictional situation were the police. It seems that you need to check up on your knowledge of events before giving me a mouthfull about stirring up trouble by telling lies.

Mister James wrote:
There were indeed attempts to avoid blame by the police, but that's hardly surprising, especially given the propensity of people like yourself to make more of things than they should!


Yes I think the police should cover things up, incase people get angry about the truth and try to uncover the deeper lies hidden between the lies they choose to admit to Laughing What do they expect the reaction to be when they kill a member of the public whom they are supposed to protect then lie through their teeth about the whole situation just to cover their own backs? selfish cowards with no sense of responsiblity.

offtopic :/
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:
Mister James wrote:
...to make more of things than they should!


I don't think much more can be made of an innocent young man losing his life by having his skull smashed to pulp by 9mm bullets at the hands of the police.


He was an illegal immigrant, so was innocent of being a suicide bomber, rather than innocent full-stop.

Again, I'm not denying that police commanders frakked up - but I fail to see how making stories up to attack them is more morally acceptable?
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
mr jamez wrote:


Mister James wrote:

The story that he jumped the turnstile and ran away from the police originated from civilian eye-witnesses, so I say again, don't make an unpleasant situation worse by building a purely fictional situation and then being outraged by it.


Well from a quick look around, it seems it wasn't just eye witnesses that brought the police to realise (admit) that he did not jump the barrier. The only people who built a purely fictional situation were the police. It seems that you need to check up on your knowledge of events before giving me a mouthfull about stirring up trouble by telling lies.


You aren't listening. I distinctly remember witnesses being interviewed on TV news following the incident, who stated categorically that he had run from police and jumped the turnstiles. That is where the story came from, not from police invention as you stated in your original post.

Quote:

What do they expect the reaction to be when they kill a member of the public whom they are supposed to protect then lie through their teeth about the whole situation just to cover their own backs? selfish cowards with no sense of responsiblity.


I think you'll find that any cover-up came from a small group of senior officers who made a flawed decision (or chain of flawed decisions) and didn't have the balls to admit it.

Again, I don't disagree with much of what you say, I just don't like people complaining about 'They' lying, then employing untruths to support their (valid) concerns.

EDIT: Siggi - yes, that wasn't my point. Mr Jamez said that the police had put that story about to hide their mistake, I pointed out that it was civilians at the scene who initiated it.
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


You aren't listening. I distinctly remember witnesses being interviewed on TV news following the incident, who stated categorically that he had run from police and jumped the turnstiles. That is where the story came from, not from police invention as you stated in your original post.


I see where you are coming from now, but the police chose to go with that version of events and make CCTV footage dissapear. it only came to light some time after the incident and they got busted big time.

Mister James wrote:

I think you'll find that any cover-up came from a small group of senior officers who made a flawed decision (or chain of flawed decisions) and didn't have the balls to admit it.


No shit but then it always is, did we have a fall guy in the end? I think one of the senior officers got promoted not long back, so I guess this kind of thing will just happen again.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cressida Dick, I think her name was. In fairness to her, she has not been subject to any sanction, so there was no reason to impede her promotion. (from the point of view of her employment contract etc - I think she's an arse!)


I feel a bit sorry for the guys on the ground, killing someone in relatively cold blood and then afterwards finding out that it was all frakked up. I suspect they have a few choice words to describe the competency of their superiors and their intel.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
You aren't listening. I distinctly remember witnesses being interviewed on TV news following the incident, who stated categorically that he had run from police and jumped the turnstiles. That is where the story came from, not from police invention as you stated in your original post.


Think you are falling for the same trap you are accusing him of.

For all we know the reason those interviewed on TV had claimed that was because they had been told that by the police before they got to the press.

To JobB. While the UK might have rules saying you need to present ID, if some private "security guard" tazered someone in the UK for refusing then they would be in a whole heap of trouble.

All the best

Keith
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tokarev
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 21 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
One of the officers that were involved in the Stockwell shooting of Menezes has also shot and killed another member of the public since then. (OK, this time there was a shotgun involved, but what is the chance of the same guy involved in another killing.)

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6108530.stm

It seems this guy is trigger happy, same as those American campus security officers.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 00:46 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
tokarev wrote:
One of the officers that were involved in the Stockwell shooting of Menezes has also shot and killed another member of the public since then. (OK, this time there was a shotgun involved, but what is the chance of the same guy involved in another killing.)

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6108530.stm

It seems this guy is trigger happy, same as those American campus security officers.


Met police armed response teams were deployed at over 3500 incidents in the last year, and shot one guy who fired a shotgun at them. Does that really qualify as trigger happy? If you fire a shotgun at me, and I find myself holding a G36, you can be assured you'll be receiving some 5.56mm payback - why should the police be any different?

Quote:

He's a murdering scumbag who gets off on it.


I know you hate the police in general, but how is it a line officers fault when he is told that an illegal immigrant is actually a terrorist positively ID'ed as a suicide bomber?

Again, once he is returned to duty after the CPS decide he genuinely believed faulty intel in good faith, and he is confronted by a man firing a shotgun at him - is he a murdering scumbag for returning fire?

I'll be the first to admit that I suspect I will probably 'get off' on shooting some twat who is trying to kill me with a shotgun!
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 19 years, 280 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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