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Student tortured at an American uni

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Mister James
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PostPosted: 00:48 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Mister James wrote:
You aren't listening. I distinctly remember witnesses being interviewed on TV news following the incident, who stated categorically that he had run from police and jumped the turnstiles. That is where the story came from, not from police invention as you stated in your original post.


Think you are falling for the same trap you are accusing him of.

For all we know the reason those interviewed on TV had claimed that was because they had been told that by the police before they got to the press.


But now you are doing exactly the same, by putting forward a hypothetical situation to support a particular viewpoint.

They were members of the public, they claim to have witnessed the event, and they were interviewed at the scene by independent media organisations. If the police were smart enough to have covered their tracks as quickly and completely as you are suggesting, then they would never have been found out.
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tokarev
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PostPosted: 00:55 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that even though the Met themselves say such things as; "it was "extremely rare" for officers to fire their guns", this same guy manages to shoot his second victim within a year.

Why did nobody else in the team shoot? Could he not of tried a non-fatal shot? So many questions.

Edit: I mean, is it really worth ending someones life for the sake of some money? Maybe they should have tried a more controlled method to capture the robbers, rather than going straight into the action?! I dunno.


Last edited by tokarev on 00:59 - 22 Nov 2006; edited 1 time in total
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Silver
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PostPosted: 00:58 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

tokarev wrote:
Why did nobody else in the team shoot? Could he not of tried a non-fatal shot? So many questions.


In fairness, what would you do if someone was waving a shotgun in your direction? You're unlikely to stand there whilst you work out the best way of shooting to wound, in the hope that he doesn't still get his shells off, even after you've shot him in the leg.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a relatively small number of firearms officers in London, so it is hardly unusual for any individual officer to be deployed to any two given incidents.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/02/nmenzes02.xml

I can't find a website that confirms it was the same guy anyway - check the above link for further details.

Unless you find proof, once again we are getting outraged over things that we have no proof actually happened.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:03 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister James wrote:
But now you are doing exactly the same, by putting forward a hypothetical situation to support a particular viewpoint.


No, just a possible scenario, which could explain why they "saw" something that did not happen. I am not supporting any viewpoint on the event at all (and I had a hell of a long thread on here about just such a point ages ago).

Mister James wrote:
They were members of the public, they claim to have witnessed the event, and they were interviewed at the scene by independent media organisations. If the police were smart enough to have covered their tracks as quickly and completely as you are suggesting, then they would never have been found out.


It isn't a suggestion of what happened, merely pointing out one possibility (for all I know it could have been little green men using mind probes Razz ), and that you are just believing what you choose to beleive.

We still do not know what really happened.

The police may have made it up. They may not. We do not know. Blindly supporting one point of view without evidence is just displaying prejudices.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite agree, however all of the evidence so far collected points to the situation as I described it, not as my namesake stated was fact with absolutely no supporting evidence apart from a distrust of the police.

You are essentially using my own argument against me, except that it doesn't work, because the best information we have allows me to claim that until you can prove otherwise, on the balance of probabilities I am correct.
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craigie b
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For the record, whatever you political stance, grandstanding to the crowd when you realise that the police mean business is not only pig-headed and poncey, it's just plain dumb.


I just realised, you've been institutionalised for too long MJ. Thats why you support authority so rigidly Laughing
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bazza
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geez, why the fuss? It's only a student.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazza wrote:
Geez, why the fuss? It's only a student.


Wish it was you Razz
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bazza
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kris wrote:
bazza wrote:
Geez, why the fuss? It's only a student.


Wish it was you Razz


Yabbut who gives a fuck what you think?
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:51 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister James wrote:
I quite agree, however all of the evidence so far collected points to the situation as I described it, not as my namesake stated was fact with absolutely no supporting evidence apart from a distrust of the police.


Not really, the police have now said that what was originally claimed on the news did not occur. There was a definate major cock up on the part of the police. Question is down to who in the chain of command was at fault.

The only info we have now is leaks from the IPCC report (not yet released). BBC report on them says that the poor sod got on a train, sat down, and was followed by an officer who sat near him, got up to hold a door open for another officer and them. Shouting followed including the word "police", Menezes got up, was grabbed by one officer, pinned down and shot 8 times. No mention of running.

Ian Blair at the time claimed that he had been challanged and refused to obey, and Scotland Yard claimed that his clothing had caused suspicion. First statement seems dubious now (shouting with the word police mentioned somewhere), 2nd is definatly wrong.

Mister James wrote:
You are essentially using my own argument against me, except that it doesn't work, because the best information we have allows me to claim that until you can prove otherwise, on the balance of probabilities I am correct.


I certainly am using your argument against you (quite intentionally Wink ). Basically to point out that your view, as much as you namesake, is biased towards your initial view of the parties involved.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

craigie b wrote:
Quote:
For the record, whatever you political stance, grandstanding to the crowd when you realise that the police mean business is not only pig-headed and poncey, it's just plain dumb.


I just realised, you've been institutionalised for too long MJ. Thats why you support authority so rigidly Laughing


You seem to be quoting another thread, although I'm unsure as to what end.

As it happens, I tended to support the authorities before I joined the Navy, or worked in the courts, or worked in Immigration - that's why I was attracted to the jobs in the first place. I'm not rigid in my support for 'authority' at all, I just dislike sloppy arguments.

Kickstart wrote:

Not really, the police have now said that what was originally claimed on the news did not occur.


Again, at no point have I stated otherwise.

Independent witnesses, interviewed at the scene by an independent media, described the original story, (ran from police, wearing a big coat, etc) that Mr Jamez insists was actually concocted by the police. I simply disputed that one particular - and my point still stands.

Quote:

There was a definate major cock up on the part of the police. Question is down to who in the chain of command was at fault.


I agree, and have said so previously.

Quote:

certainly am using your argument against you (quite intentionally Wink ). Basically to point out that your view, as much as you namesake, is biased towards your initial view of the parties involved.


I'm aware of your intent - my 'bias' simply follows the available evidence, as I have spelt out several times.

There is not even the slightest inkling that the people interviewed by various media outlets on the day of the interview had been influenced by the police in any way, all I have done is challenge Mr Jamez in his instant assumption that the police had been behind the mis-information all along.

People say they saw something, I have no evidence to believe that they are intentionally lying, thus I am forced to believe that they genuinely described the events as they believed them to happen. It looks likely (although only according to un-accountable leaks) that their recollections were tragically wrong - but that doesn't prove a jot of Mr Jamez's allegations that the police made up the story from the word go.

I am taking events at face value - and thus your tongue-in-cheek reversal of my own argument does not apply.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister James wrote:
Independent witnesses, interviewed at the scene by an independent media, described the original story, (ran from police, wearing a big coat, etc) that Mr Jamez insists was actually concocted by the police. I simply disputed that one particular - and my point still stands.


Point being that some of the statements were repeated by the police.

Mister James wrote:
I'm aware of your intent - my 'bias' simply follows the available evidence, as I have spelt out several times.


Not evidence. Heresay. Sometime I suspect you would have pointed out if the situation was reversed.

All the best

Keith
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Irezumi aka Reuben
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Siggi and Tokarev, your having a moan that a trained officer shot dead a man who was involved in an armed robbery. Laughing

Whether he should of been there or not is another matter, he was and he shot the guy.

Serves the wanker right for having a shotgun in this instance. He learnt his lesson and it serves him right.

@Mister James, surely the decision final decision rest's with the armed officer though, it is ultimately them who pull's the trigger. Unless he went to pull a trigger/set off a device they could have used the initiative to detain the person.

Also lead's into another farcical topic of immigration.

Remind me why this island has the word 'great' at the beggining of it again? Laughing
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:25 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reuben wrote:
He learnt his lesson and it serves him right.


Lot of good it did him Laughing . Sorry, just have visions of him watching this bullet fly towards him and suddenly deiciding "in future I really must not wave a gun around".

All the best

Keith
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Irezumi aka Reuben
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm now imagining that in a slow-mo Matrix style sequence. Confused Laughing
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:


Mister James wrote:
I'm aware of your intent - my 'bias' simply follows the available evidence, as I have spelt out several times.


Not evidence. Heresay. Sometime I suspect you would have pointed out if the situation was reversed.


Quite, but in this case, it is the best evidence available, taken from eye-witnesses (or people claiming to be such). It is for those disagreeing to find evidence or hearsay with a superior provenance to disprove the original 'facts'.
Mr Jamez assuming it because he doesn't like the police hardly counts as that.

Reuben wrote:

@Mister James, surely the decision final decision rest's with the armed officer though, it is ultimately them who pull's the trigger. Unless he went to pull a trigger/set off a device they could have used the initiative to detain the person.


Operation Krytos (or whatever it is they call it) is based on the idea that you are apprehending a suicide bomber who has no problem with dying. Due to faulty intel and a command decision, the armed officers believed they were dealing with a wanted terrorist who was on his way to carry out an atrocity. Their rules of engagement were quite specific, so no, they didn't really have any leeway to use their initiative.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister James wrote:
Quite, but in this case, it is the best evidence available, taken from eye-witnesses (or people claiming to be such). It is for those disagreeing to find evidence or hearsay with a superior provenance to disprove the original 'facts'.
Mr Jamez assuming it because he doesn't like the police hardly counts as that.


It was the best evidence, even if thinking about it , it doesn't make that much sense. It long ceased to the be the only evidence, and is now totally discounted.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 00:50 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

....but is still sufficient to support the fact that the reports of running/ignoring police/wearing a heavy jacket did not originate with the police - as per Mr Jamez.
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SoND
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tasering was completely unneccessary, there's no excuse for it. He was just refusing/unable to stand up and the lazy fuckers wouldn't pick up him and carry him out.

He had every right to complain about the abuse they were giving him. I wouldn't go down quietly if some fucker decided to do that to me all over an ID.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 01:00 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Siggi wrote:

I'm not moaning about it, just observing that the scumbag who did it is clearly a sick fuck who hides behind the law so he can get to blow people away. It's pretty common in places like amerika, not so common over here. So when one surfaces he sticks out like a sore thumb. He knew, as well as I do, that being confronted by a blagger's shotgun (big muzzle-spread sawn-off, with low velocity birdshot cartridges, vs body-armor) isn't particularly dangerous unless it's in the face at point-blank range. You certainly don't need to empty a clip into somebody.

Not the point though. You wave a gun around, you take the possible consequences. Even if those consequences are at the hands of a trigger-happy, state-sanctioned, uniformed coward and murderer.


As far as I'm aware, they have yet to reveal whether it was the same officer, simply stating that it was the same response team.

The robber in question died in hospital rather than at the scene, suggesting that he didn't have an entire clip emptied into him, regardless of who did the emptying!
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fenton
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 19 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuckin bastards the lot of em. i hope they miss the bit in the video where they get mobbed... no need for that at all.
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GodzGift
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 20 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

having spent 3 years @ uni a few years ago, i can relate to this more, the issue with asking for ID is fair to a point, but is debateable.

i recently started to do CISCO course (networking), part time on saturdays, and the best place i could do this was some college, where it was full of 16-18 year olds and i had to obey the rule and wear my id card and if i never i had to make sure it was displayed. as the security guards were acting like bouncers. The area where the college is situated is bad and you are likely to get mugged or have fight at any point so, i could understand why they didnt want anybody who was not apart of the college not to be in there. BUT <---------- this is a HUGE ONE

Its not fair, as this resulted in a similar incident at this college, one of the mates in my course age 35 as age group of people doing the cisco course was 25 - 40 est. was approached by by a security guard who rudely states put your badge on, as they do, as they fell they are SOMETHING WORTH respecting. So my mate pulls out the ID card and says "HERE IT IS, happy," pretty much flashes it so they clearly saw he had a ID card.

They then asked him to wear it, but he had the ID card in his card which could be clearly seen. he said no, im displaying my ID card i will not wear it. and continued to walk to his class. being followed by these security guards who state "PUT your id card around your neck, blah blah blah"

Now this is going on around us, i state to the PRICKS aka security guards, is this neccessery as u know he has a card, just go on with your business, but the pricks NOW wanna play the "LOOK @ MY DICK, its BIGGER THEN YOURS GAME".

Twats, they never listened and carried on arguing with this 35 year ADULT who is older then the security guard who is treating him like a 16 year old. who obeyed the laws of the college. To cut a long story short the situation escalated he started swearing at them cos they tried to grab him as they wanted to throw him off campus for not wearing it around his neck, back up arrived in the form of more TWATS, principle came down and then expelled the my 35 year old mate for swearing and disruptive behaviour.

Now, the classes for that evening were at that point, not important to me as I was so pissed off. The college has rules which state you to wear your ID card which he wasnt doing but after being warned displayed the Card, the security at this point could have let it go but chose to escalate the situation, and hence my friend will probably be pressing charges.

I follow the FUCKING RULES if i feel it is sensible, i read the fucking print and know what i get myself into, i try to avoid confrontation if i can but these FUCKING SECURITY guards, had no clue, and deserved to be sacked.

Now, these twats were security guards, where not trained properly and made some wrong choices. But i could maybe understand that. when law enforcement ( i.e. PIGS) do it then it is unacceptable. regardless of this ID CARD bullshit at uni or college fuck all that.

mendez case = lets just kill everyone with up to 10 bullets to the head from point blank range for running in a tube station.

To everyone on here agreeing with like Mister James, or G, or the fascist at the beginning, I have a taser at home, my mate gave it to me as present, all you guys come round and let me SHOCK you by the neck a few times, and let me see if you agree with that.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 20 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

GodzGift wrote:
......an awful lot of twaddle that's best forgotten.


Now that you've incorrectly rated my month-old post, and vented your spleen regarding your fellow student challenging the rules he agreed to when he signed up at the college, perhaps you can explain where I said I supported the random tazering of innocent students? I merely pointed out areas of other people's comments that I felt were unfair or inaccurate.

I also seem to remember criticising the campus police for their inability to de-escalate the situation, control the crowd, or demonstrate adequate control and restraint techniques. I have restrained far more vicious people, in far more hostile circumstances, surrounded by far more people actually itching to get involved, and have never had to resort to using items that fall under the Firearms legislation. (Fortunate, as I don't actually carry such items, just my trusty cuffs and knife).

Further to that, I find myself forced to warn you that I'd probably react rather badly to someone I don't know attempting to tazer me in the neck, even assuming that I'd be weird enough to think that visiting a random nutter's house so that he can use his illegal weapon me was a jolly good jape.

Quote:

having spent 3 years @ uni a few years ago, i can relate to this more,


I confess to being intrigued by this comment. You can relate to this more than who? I'm sure many others on this forum share your background as a graduate - me being one of them - but I fail to see how it magically gives you more insight on this matter.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 20 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

GodzGift wrote:
having spent 3 years @ uni a few years ago, i can relate to this more, the issue with asking for ID is fair to a point, but is debateable.


Sounds like your 35 year old mate got what he deserved, quite frankly. If you're wandering around a college and you don't want to be treated like some scrote off the street looking for something to steal, just wear your ID. If you feel it's somehow beneath your dignity, feel free to throw a strop like a 5 year old, but be prepared for the consequences.

However, those consequences should be limited to being escorted off the premises, not being tortured by some security goons.
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