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Right, backwards pillion... Why?!

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Mozzer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Right, backwards pillion... Why?! Reply with quote
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q532.htm

Haha, was trying to find out what kind of proofs the police would accept to prove a 33bhp restriction (Dyno graph?)... and found that. Cracked me up.
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KTM Gordo
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, the only requirement is that the pillion passenger is sat astride the machine, and wearing an approved helmet. This nugget of information was provided during my CBT by my instructor.

But for proof of 33bhp restriction, the Police would probably call in a VOSA vehicle examiner to do the job in an "expert witness" capacity. Their checks may include a dyno-type device being used, or it might be a physical inspection to see if the necessary restrictors are in place.

Either way, riding an unrestricted 'bike with a restricted licence is a really dumb thing to do, and may well consign your licence to the shredder - it will almost certainly do that to your insurance certificate as you'll be riding other than in accordence with your licence - check the small print on your policy carefully!

HTH Smile
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tatters
Exxon Valdez



Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
KTM Gordo wrote:

Either way, riding an unrestricted 'bike with a restricted licence is a really dumb thing to do, and may well consign your licence to the shredder - it will almost certainly do that to your insurance certificate as you'll be riding other than in accordence with your licence - check the small print on your policy carefully!

HTH Smile




Rolling Eyes bollocks
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h00dwink
World Chat Champion



Joined: 04 May 2006
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
KTM Gordo wrote:

Either way, riding an unrestricted 'bike with a restricted licence is a really dumb thing to do, and may well consign your licence to the shredder - it will almost certainly do that to your insurance certificate as you'll be riding other than in accordence with your licence - check the small print on your policy carefully!

HTH Smile


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Clanger
Stirrer



Joined: 27 May 2004
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive done it, and its weird, especially when the rider brakes...
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: Right, backwards pillion... Why?! Reply with quote
Mozzer wrote:
Haha, was trying to find out what kind of proofs the police would accept to prove a 33bhp restriction (Dyno graph?)... and found that. Cracked me up.

Law says your bike has to be less than 33bhp, it doesn't say anything about needing any proof.

Obviously any inspection of your bike that they want to do would have to be done at a later date (completely within your rights to request that) and by that point your bike would definately be 33bhp. Wink
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TheDonUK
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste is right, There is no "official proof", the certificates from FI International are a rip off...

Besides you are gonna really have to be taking the piss... Wheeling past a traffic police car running down a couple of muslim disabled little girls in the process. For them to go for you like that...

And the fact you are conscious about riding an unrestricted bike tells me you are not a fuckin nutter that would do something like the above...

I have been stopped by coppers who obviously really did not like me nor believe me that my bike was restricted, his worse bite was writing on a producer "Produce 33bhp Certificate"... So i took a letter on headed paper from my mechanic quoting the part number of the restrictors and the date fitted.. Laughing

The fact is even if you do get a producer stating you need 33bhp "proof", the person you show it to at the desk of the police station will very likely no nothing about bikes... let alone the whole 33bhp restriction laws...
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sickpup
Old Timer



Joined: 21 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: Right, backwards pillion... Why?! Reply with quote
Ste wrote:


Obviously any inspection of your bike that they want to do would have to be done at a later date (completely within your rights to request that) and by that point your bike would definately be 33bhp. Wink


You can request all you want but if an Officer believes the vehicle has been used in the execution of a criminal offence no matter how much you beg or plead he can impound the vehicle.

I think you are refering to a Section 67 (? poor memory) deferred test which would not apply in this circumstance.

There is of course the point that there is not a single dyno in this country that could be used to prosecute one of these cases.
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nrml76
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 22 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Clanger wrote:
Ive done it, and its weird, especially when the rider brakes...


Me too; but I found pulling off from stationary more difficult. It feels like you are going to be thrown over the tail, and there is nothing to brace yourself against Shocked.
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JeffT
Crazy Courier



Joined: 05 May 2004
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
KTM Gordo wrote:
Yes, the only requirement is that the pillion passenger is sat astride the machine, and wearing an approved helmet.


And the pillion must be able to reach both footpegs Wink
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veeeffarr
Super Spammer



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Aye I heard they're actually designer with consideration for the pillion who wants to sit backwards... Good for camera crews and the like..
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KTM Gordo
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
tatters wrote:
Rolling Eyes bollocks

From your witty and erudite post, do I assume that you disagree with what I said? Or have you just discovered you could be in trouble?

FWIW, I've asked a Police traffic officer (an Inspector as it happens) and a magistrate what the likely outcome would be for riding a 'bike with >33bhp on a restricted licence.

I'll post their comments in due course, which will give us a definitive answer.

HTH Smile
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0ddball
World Chat Champion



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the bollocks bit refers to the insurance bit. As far as the law is concerned your insurance would still be valid.
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Jack_Cheese
World Chat Champion



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 23 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
If your policy is FC, it should have a clause something like:

"this policy only covers the policy holder to drive vehices for which their licence entitles them."

IE If it's over 33bhp OR 0.16 BHP/KG you're fudged.

I think it's mainly for the use of vehicles not outlined in the policy, but it is still present in most TPF&T and TPO policies. If it isn't then your insurance brokers and/or underwriters are a bunch of monkeys, and will be just about as useful come legal representation time...

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KTM Gordo
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 24 Nov 2006    Post subject: Riding without a licence: Definitive Answer Reply with quote
Right, I've got the definitive answer to this oft-visited topic:

My original post wasn't quite right - in the eyes of the law, you will have insurance because there is an obligation for insurance companies to pay claims by third parties. However, you are likely to find that your insurance company will not pay for any damage to your own 'bike - and no doubt they'll load your premium come renewal time.

From a penalty point of view, the tariff for driving not in accordance with a driving licence is three points and a £60 fine - but it's worth bearing in mind that insurance companies are likely to take a dim view of someone with that sort of endorsment on their licence.

You could also have your 'bike impounded if there's a 'bike transporter handy.

There. Sorted. HTH Smile
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Rookie
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 24 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: Riding without a licence: Definitive Answer Reply with quote
KTM Gordo wrote:
Right, I've got the definitive answer to this oft-visited topic:

My original post wasn't quite right - in the eyes of the law, you will have insurance because there is an obligation for insurance companies to pay claims by third parties. However, you are likely to find that your insurance company will not pay for any damage to your own 'bike - and no doubt they'll load your premium come renewal time.

From a penalty point of view, the tariff for driving not in accordance with a driving licence is three points and a £60 fine - but it's worth bearing in mind that insurance companies are likely to take a dim view of someone with that sort of endorsment on their licence.

You could also have your 'bike impounded if there's a 'bike transporter handy.

There. Sorted. HTH Smile


Having 3 points and a £60 fine on my licence didn't bump my insurance one penny. It's when you get 6 that you should start worrying.

Anyway, we all know the penalties involved when it comes to riding outside a 33bhp limit. But it's actually seeing that process be fully accomplished which never happens. Speaking from my personal experiences and having spoken to many people on the forum, I've never come across someone who has been done for it. In fact I don't think I've ever heard of someone being asked, and I've never heard of someone reporting that a police officer knew about the 33bhp rule (the closest I can remember is that a copper told someone they couldn't ride anything over a 400cc - they were told where to shove it). And you need all these things for them to bring a case against you.

You need the overpowered bike (that's agiven)

You need to get pulled over in the first place - unless you're unlucky enough to be randomly pulled or you're doing something else illegal, they can't tell, even if they knew what they were looking for. And if you're stopped for doing stupid speeds (110 plus) they'll know it's not 33bhp, but by that time you're going to be raped on the speeding charge anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point.

You need to have a copper who knows the ins and outs of the restriction rule.

You need to have a copper who suspects your bike isn't 33bhp (only really noticeable by speed on the roads, and I've already mentioned what sort of bannable speeds you need to be doing).

You need to have a copper who can be arsed with the hassle of sorting out a VOSA check.

And you need a copper who will impound your bike immediately so you can't take it home and bosh some restrictors in or bodge together a throttle stopper.

If you get all of these possibilities thrown in together, yes you would probably get screwed for it. But it's not a massive offence, I've demonstrated that it doesn't affect your insurance if it's your first offence, and very few people riding under a 33bhp limit on an overpowered bike are going to have Fully Comp insurance anyway.

So yes, there's a possibility you'll get into some nasty trouble. But the possibility is so miniscule, I'll take that risk again and again. I was riding with 3 times the power I should have had a couple of months ago. And I'll be riding with more than 4 times the power I should have in another couple of months. I take that risk because the benefits far outweigh the possible consequences.
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McGee
O RLY?



Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 24 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Me and my mate done it on the RF and got pulled by the traffic cops Mr. Green

Couldnt do any thing as they didnt know what to book us under Laughing

They did say that the rider (me) would not get any points but the pillion would of for not being sat astride the bike correctly.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 24 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
With the 33bhp laws people generally are worried about the police finding out, worst thats gonna happen there is points/fine/ban.
KTM Gordo wrote:
you will have insurance because there is an obligation for insurance companies to pay claims by third parties

Have a crash which results in third parties claiming off your insurance, your insurer notices that your bike wasn't restricted. They'll still pay out to the third parties, they'll then come after you for all their costs which could be a bit nasty if the claim came to millions.

But for that to happen they've got to notice that your bike wasn't 33bhp, which've you've got to hope doesn't happen. Wink
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KTM Gordo
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 22:20 - 25 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Have a crash which results in third parties claiming off your insurance, your insurer notices that your bike wasn't restricted. They'll still pay out to the third parties, they'll then come after you for all their costs which could be a bit nasty if the claim came to millions.

Very true - and that can be very hard on the wallet.

A friend in Switzerland has told me that when the insurance company makes the civil claim in the courts (which they always do), it can result in being forced to sell your home and/or make eye-wateringly big monthly payments - potentially for the life of the seriously injured person. Lifetime medical care doesn't come cheap.
Quote:
But for that to happen they've got to notice that your bike wasn't 33bhp, which you've got to hope doesn't happen. Wink

If it's a serious enough accident (serious injury or death) then you can be sure they will find out.

At the end of the day, if you play with fire you've got to expect to get burnt.
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syl
World Chat Champion



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 27 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
KTM Gordo wrote:
A friend in Switzerland has told me that when the insurance company makes the civil claim in the courts (which they always do), it can result in being forced to sell your home and/or make eye-wateringly big monthly payments - potentially for the life of the seriously injured person. Lifetime medical care doesn't come cheap.


It comes completely free (at the point of delivery) in the UK so it's quite annoying that such costs ever get awarded at all. I agree that the person should get a financial payout for suffering and the costs of conversion required to their home however medical and nursing care is already fully provided by the NHS.
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Kara
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Joined: 23 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 09:47 - 27 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: Riding without a licence: Definitive Answer Reply with quote
Rookie wrote:

Having 3 points and a £60 fine on my licence didn't bump my insurance one penny. It's when you get 6 that you should start worrying.


It probably would if the code was driving not in accordance to your license. Unless your points were for that, and then I apologise Smile
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KTM Gordo
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 14:30 - 27 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
dmahon wrote:
KTM Gordo wrote:
A friend in Switzerland has told me that when the insurance company makes the civil claim in the courts (which they always do), it can result in being forced to sell your home and/or make eye-wateringly big monthly payments - potentially for the life of the seriously injured person. Lifetime medical care doesn't come cheap.


It comes completely free (at the point of delivery) in the UK so it's quite annoying that such costs ever get awarded at all. I agree that the person should get a financial payout for suffering and the costs of conversion required to their home however medical and nursing care is already fully provided by the NHS.

Free at point of delivery, yes - but it still has to be paid for.

Why should an already over-stretched NHS pay for the life-time care of someone injured in a road accident when there's insurance in place to cover it? The law in the UK is that the NHS can claim the cost of treatment from the insurance companies.

I'd far rather that people paid for the consequences of their own actions - I've not injured anyone in a car accident, so why should my taxes cover the negligence of others?

Hmm... I appear to have a tool for opening cans of worms... Confused
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