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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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 Posted: 22:08 - 11 Jan 2007  Post subject: |
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| froggeh wrote: | Much that I wish you were right, I'm afraid the evidence is too strong to deny Global warming now. |
There is plenty of evidence both ways. Doesn't help that we commonly get the "hockey stick" graph of temperature over the last millenium, showing a sharp increase lately. Since proven to be caused not by an increase in temperature but dodgy processing of statistics.
| froggeh wrote: | The Little Ice Age (and the medieval warm period) certainly muddy the data, but don't change the fact that human beings are responsible for a portion of the earths current increasing temperatures. |
Portion maybe, but unless you know the portion it is irrelevant. Are humans responsible for 100% of the warming? 10%? 1%? 0.00000001%?
Most scientists now go along with it.
| froggeh wrote: | "The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people," said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. "The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable."
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1489955,00.html |
Seem that not being able to come up with solid facts they have instead resorted to treating the argument as already won. The models he is so sure of cannot even give current climate given known past temperature measurements.
Just so you know how your opinion is manipulated:-
https://www.ippr.org.uk/ecomm/files/warm_words.pdf
A document from a think tank talking about how best to talk up "global warming".
For example on page 25:-
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Treating climate change as beyond argument
Much of the noise in the climate change discourse comes from argument and counter-argument, and it is our recommendation that, at least for popular communications, interested agencies now need to treat the argument as having been won. This means simply behaving as if climate change exists and is real, and that individual actions are effective. This must be done by stepping away from the 'advocates debate' described earlier, rather than by stating and re-stating these things as fact.
The 'facts' need to be treated as being so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken. The certainty of the Government's new climate-change slogan - 'Together this generation will tackle climate change' (Defra 2006) - gives an example of this approach. It constructs, rather than claims, its own factuality. |
In other words, whatever the facts pretend that global warming is beyond doubt.
| froggeh wrote: | I tend to agree with this. In fact I'd regard global warming as a strong or stronger theory as evolution. |
Global warming is, anthropomorphic global warming is also a probability, but the level of it is important.
If temperature will rise, say, 3 degrees and 0.1 degrees is down to humans, how much would you be prepared to spend in eliminatating that 0.1 degree? How many deaths could have been prevented by spending that money elsewhere?
All the best
Keith
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| headlamp |
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headlamp
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| froggeh |
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froggeh
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Posted: 01:31 - 12 Jan 2007  Post subject: |
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You'll be arguing for intelligent design next..
ever heard of glbal dimming?
It hides the effect of global warming.
It is far worse than the data suggests.
There is no manipulation of the masses. There is a real threat.
Believe it or don't it doesn't matter. We have passed the point of no return already. |
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| zaknafien |
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zaknafien
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
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| Posted: 01:49 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| froggeh wrote: | You'll be arguing for intelligent design next..
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Why? That is a made up idea with little scientific basis. Pretty much like the global warming hysteria we hear.
| froggeh wrote: | ever heard of glbal dimming? |
Yes. Have you heard of sunspot activity and how it affects global temperature (and how the numbers have been rising for about the last 100 years)? Have you heard how limited CO2 is as a warming gas (compared to methane and water vapour). Have you heard about the urban heat island effect that corrupts land based temperature measurements. Have you heard about the sea level in Tuvalu (despite the hysteria about low lying pacific islands it hasn't risen).
| froggeh wrote: | There is no manipulation of the masses. There is a real threat. |
There is the possibility of a real threat. There are other real threats as well, and spending billions on one threat leaves nothing to deal with other threats.
| froggeh wrote: | Believe it or don't it doesn't matter. We have passed the point of no return already. |
In which case we probably passed it when some of the current lot involved in global warming hysteria were enjoying the hysteria over a coming ice age.
No manipulation? There certainly is manipulation. That is well acknowledged. Quite obvious that the threats are overstated to try and get people to take them seriously (and not particularly hidden).
Trouble is that we have had so many horror stories over the years that many will believe them without a solid body of evidence. And we are far from having that evidence on global warming.
The science is far from certain:-
https://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=3711460e-bd5a-475d-a6be-4db87559d605
All the best
Keith
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Tarmacsurfer
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froggeh
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froggeh
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| RickHolt |
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Kickstart
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angryjonny
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 13:57 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| angryjonny wrote: | I love the idea of recycling metal. The planet is made of the stuff. It's a giant iron magnet flying through space. But we might run out of metal.
And recycling glass too. As if we're running out of sand.
I also love the idea of people driving their BMW X5s ten miles to Tesco and back so they can recycle three wine bottles. "I'm saving the planet here!" |
I love environmentalists too , on their push bikes who dare come up to me and complain I am destroying the earth , who say their bicycles do not harm the environment one bit,
Sort of like after the bundsfield fire , a push bike girl told me oil should never have been extracted in the first place, I told her her chain didn't look very worn , what did she use to lube it, she said oil , at which she realised her mistake and got frustrated and walked away
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| st3v3 |
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st3v3
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| Posted: 14:37 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | angryjonny wrote:
Itchy wrote:
the planet is doomed , doomed I tells ya , so we might as well enjoy it while it lasts
The planet will be fine. It might have to kill all humans off in order to survive but it'll do that if it needs to. Some kind of disaster will happen, most life will die, the planet will recover in a staggeringly short time (geologically speaking) and a whole plethora of new lifeforms will evolve.
When people say they are concerned about "the planet" that's not strictly the case; they're concerned about the human race. We're just a species of animal. Sooner or later we will cease to exist. The planet will live on. Whether or not we contribute to our own extinction is irrelevant, really.
I agree partly with this, but I doubt we will ever cease to exist. Even if the world gets almost unbearable, we will survive to some extent. And eventually I'm sure we will spread to other planets... |
I agree.
| Quote: | We're only going back to how we were before. It's a cycle, it happens. The world has much bigger things to worry about right now imo. |
the first bit, true.
the bit i bolded, can i ask 'like what?' 
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Dan 4RR
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| froggeh |
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froggeh
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| Posted: 19:33 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 19:50 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| froggeh wrote: | It was very late, and I am no expert. |
Few are. Including plenty of the scientists who are quoted in support of it. Might be a scientist, but doesn't mean their area of speciality has anything to do with climate.
| froggeh wrote: | I wish the folk who still cling to the futile belief that global warming is nowt to do with us and that we can't do anything to help alleviate it were right. |
Why is it futile to actually want proof. The alternative seems to be screwing up the economy and peoples lives "just in case"
| froggeh wrote: | But I doubt very much they are, considering the mounting mass of evidence, and very well respected people backing up the theories. |
There is massive evidence both ways, and great uncertainty. However it is not politically correct to look at some of it, and the green industry is very well entrenched.
| froggeh wrote: | Like I said, I regard them a little like Creationists. |
Maybe, your choice. But the creationalists are the ones depending on faith, pretty similar to some of the global warming supporters.
| froggeh wrote: | Saying that, the more I think about it maybe we should just carry on, and hopefully the human race will drop to a more manageble level. Then maybe if we haven't already made most of the other species on the planet extinct, then Earth will become a much more pleasant place to live  |
Maybe true, but population is a rather different issue to climate.
All the best
Keith
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froggeh
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| Posted: 21:25 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: |
Why is it futile to actually want proof. The alternative seems to be screwing up the economy and peoples lives "just in case"
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I don't see any economy being screwed up, or peoples lives being ruined. What exactly are you refering to?
| Kickstart wrote: |
There is massive evidence both ways, and great uncertainty. However it is not politically correct to look at some of it, and the green industry is very well entrenched.
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For a while I was like you, but the evidence has become far too strong supporting the Global warming standpoint.
To be honest the Americans not signing Kyoto started to make me think very strngly about it. It certainly isn't in the interests of the government/s
| Kickstart wrote: |
Maybe, your choice. But the creationalists are the ones depending on faith, pretty similar to some of the global warming supporters.
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It's only my personal opinion this one.
I regard the viewpoints to be very similar in possibility
| Kickstart wrote: |
Maybe true, but population is a rather different issue to climate.
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Not really - If we fuck the world up much more the population will certainly be affected. |
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 21:41 - 12 Jan 2007 Post subject: |
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| froggeh wrote: | I don't see any economy being screwed up, or peoples lives being ruined. What exactly are you refering to? |
Quite what economy do you think we will have if CO2 emissions are reduced by the 60% or so that are claimed to be really required (Kyoto is a smokescreen, even if implemented in full its claimed effects on atmospheric CO2 is delaying the 2094 level until 2100).
| froggeh wrote: | For a while I was like you, but the evidence has become far too strong supporting the Global warming standpoint. |
The evidence has not got stronger. It has got weaker if anything.
| froggeh wrote: | To be honest the Americans not signing Kyoto started to make me think very strngly about it. It certainly isn't in the interests of the government/s |
Why not? Perfect excuse to scare people into anything. Easy demonisation of anyone who doesn't agree. Reduced dependence on imported fossil fuels. The list goes on.
| froggeh wrote: | Not really - If we fuck the world up much more the population will certainly be affected. |
True, but population levels are a bigger problem by a hell of a long way.
All the best
Keith
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 19 years, 229 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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