K series engine Timing. (Not bike related)

binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

Ok, sorry its not a bike related question, But it is about a DOHC engine, and im sure alot of you guys are very good with this sort of thing.

Now ive got a 16v, K series 1.4GTi engine in my garage. it basically had Head gasket faliure, So ive removed the head, had it skimmed, Cleaned it all up, New dowels and gasket, New cam shafts seals, and all that. Everything is done and dusted. but today, I stupidly turned over the bottom end of the engine, whilst the Cam Belt was off. So the cams have stayed still in the safe position, But the bottom end is now not in its safe position. I can spin it round so the Notch on the bottom pully lines up with the notch on the engine. But this dosent necessary mean my bottom end is correct. Does it?

It can be 180 Degrees out, Meaning when a piston which should at the bottom, And is actually at the top. Its going to bend valves isnt it?

Now Ive no idea how to rectify this, As I dont know wheather in "safe mode", pistons 1 and 4 should be ready to come up, Or pistons 2 and 3 should be ready to come up.

Bearing in mind the Safe pistion position on the K series engines in BTDC, All pistons level. Not 2 up 2 down.

Any help appreciated ta.

<|ben|>

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

The dizzy works off the Inlet Cam. Which tecnically works off the rotation of the bottom end.

360 Degrees out means its not out at all dosent it?

hmmmnz · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

umm, not entiely to sure but i think its half way out, as a 4stroke does 2 complete rotations to complete the firing cycle, eg up down up down (hense the 4 stroke) so effectivly in the 1 turn of you bottom end you have gone up and then back down.
turn your enginge another 360' to complete the cycle. (either direction won't matter)
hope that helps a bit,
you'll still have to check your timing at tdc on cylinder one to make your your perfect,
good luck Thumbs Up

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binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

At the moment, i dont know if im out or in. Ive got no idea what "Order" the pistions are in at the moment. Its all enclosed.

By removing the spark plugs, and putting a long piece of dowel down each cylinder, I will beable to see which 2 pistions are up, and which 2 are down.

Now the part I dont know, Is...

When the cams are in "safe mode", Do Pistons 2 and 3 need to be on their way Up. Or do Pistions 1 and 4 need to be on their way up.

It can only be one or the other, Its just knowing which. If I re-assemble and its wrong, I could damage valves I think.

binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

Just had a bit of a "Brain wave". And Im thinking. If I remove the Cam Cover, I will beable to see the cams / Rockers.

Now by doing this, I will bealbe to see which valves are open, and which are closed, as I turn the engine Over.

this way I can see which pistions should be traveling upwards from the safety position.

BUT my big ??? Is, When do the valves open or close. ive got No idea at all. Laughing

hmmmnz · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

they both open on downward strokes, so you still wont be able to see if you are out, sorry Thumbs Up

you have to know when its sparking,
get the enginge manual for your engine, or any dohc engine to get an idea of what to do to get it right
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beast rider · Could Be A Chat Bot Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Karma :

Dont worry about if your 180deg out you should be fine as long as the bottom pulley is at TDC, to tell this either pit a screw driver down the spark plug hole for No1 cylinder and see when it rises or just make sure the woodrough key is facing up on the bottom pulley.

One rotation of the bottom would be two at the top if the cams where connected.

Get the cams lined up and put on the belt then rotate the engine a few times and listen for any knocking, if the engine gets stuck then stop as it means one of the valves is possibly bent.

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

stevo as b4 · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Karma :

The K-series engine is held together with 10 through bolts from the top of the head to the ladder/main bearing carrier. This i belive is like some in line 4 cyl bike engines, which is one of the basis for this engine design.

The problem is that your not supposed to rotate the crankshaft from the locked in the safe position whilst the head is off, as the clamping force on the main bearings is released, and so the main bearings are not fully torqued in position. This can cause damage to the bearings if the engine is turned over without the head fitted. Also you shouldn't turn the engine over without the liner clamps being fitted to the top of the block, otherwise you can easily dislodge the liners and break the seal at the base of them, which means they need to be removed and re-sealed, or you will have trouble with coolant leaking into the engine internally.

When you re-fit the head you should also check that there is sufficiant liner stand proud clearance at the top of the block. Basically the liners need about 4-5thou" protruding above the block face, so that the head gasket can clamp down on the liners and the area around the fire rings, to give a good seal. This is one of the design/build quality problems with the K-series engine, in that if the liners are at different heights or have sunk in the block due to distortion from overheating, then you will never get a good head gasket seal. Make sure that you use the uprated later MGR head gasket, and steel dowels too, as the old gasket and plastic dowels are responsible for a lot of the head gasket failures on this engine.

As for cam timing, try asking on www.mg-rover.org. There are a lot of Rover K-series experts on there who will be able to tell you exactly how to time up the cams on this engine, and in what sequence.

binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

Stevo, What you say is true! Thumbs Up

Pannic over now anyway, I realised what id done wrong. I got worried because I thaught it was 2 turns of the cams to 1 turn of the bottom pully. So Thats why I was thinking the whole 180deg Out thing.

The K series isnt a TDC setup engine. Its a BTDC engine, So in "safe mode" all pistons are level.

As for bent valves, Nothing is bent as far as I know.

I know not to turn the engine over without the head on, And also know about the liners etc.

The head IS on, And when I turned the crank over, the valves were all shut. Thumbs Up

All sorted now anyhoo! Very Happy

Retro-Man · Traffic Copper Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Karma :

Stop right there sunshine

K series head gasket failure... so far you have done nothing to stop it failing again

forget the dowels, that's bollox you need the new lower block rail that fits between the bottom of the block and the sump, the head bolts go all the way through to this.

You will also need the satellite thermostat modification

any Land Rover dealer will know exactly what parts you need and be able to offer advice on correct procedure's

Heed my advice, please I've seen approx 300 K series engine head gasket failures whilst with LR myself

PM me if you need further help.

Retro
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kn76cbr · Nitrous Nuisance Joined: 28 May 2006 Karma :

Done lots of them.
As long as the head is not bowed all this other stuff don't matter.
i.e liners moving
It don't have liners!
set lower timing mark,
line up upper marks so inlet cam(the back one) has 'IN' line facing backwards and 'EX' line facing forward(exhaust manifold side), now set the exhaust cam the same way,
you should now have EX and IN lining up with each other at the 2 pullys closest point
Put NEW cambelt on stick the leads on the same way they came off and away you go.
Any prob's send me a PM
I'll check hear tomorrow to see how you are doing.
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kn76cbr · Nitrous Nuisance Joined: 28 May 2006 Karma :

I'm only in Gravesend if you rearly get stuck.
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Retro-Man · Traffic Copper Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Karma :

it does involve removing the engine sump, beyond that its reasonably simple to do, there are all sorts of folk lore story's as to why the K Series fails.

Cost wise around the £200 mark (last time I looked) for all the parts required. but its the only secure way to ensure it does not fail again later.

let me have your email addy and I will send you the latest tech bulletin from LR

Retro
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kn76cbr · Nitrous Nuisance Joined: 28 May 2006 Karma :

Lets face it the main reason they fail is they are CRAP. Laughing

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Retro-Man · Traffic Copper Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Karma :

Got to agree there, all started when Rover farmed out the manufacture of them under license Thumbs Up

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binge · Emo Kiddy Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Karma :

Im actually quite fond of the K series Motor.

Previous to my Pug, I had 3 "A-series" Minis and an MG A+ mini. Which were all pretty shoddy engines. The Pug also has an AWFUL engine in it.

As for the 1.4GTi K series engine, Its a revvy powerful engine for its CC. And hopefully as Its going in a Mini, It will be under very little stress and will turn out quite reliable.

The car its going in wont be more than 600kg. Thumbs Up

Retro-Man · Traffic Copper Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Karma :

Binge see my pm

BTW did you know the 1400cc k series can easily be converted to a short stroke 1600cc simply via a change of liners and pistons!
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stevo as b4 · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Karma :

If you have a well built K-series engine, then it's still a very good engine indeed! It arguably one of the most advanced 1400cc engines around in the early 90's, and it still one of the most powerful 1.4 litre engines ever made, (103bhp std). The problems that give the K-series the mixed reputation IMO all stem from poor component specification of gaskets/dowels etc, and poor assembly without closely controlled tolerances.

The early wet liner 1400cc engines were generally very reliable, without many cases of head gasket failure. The other contributing factor is the expansion of a nice strong 1400cc engine into a 1600 and 1800cc unit, which was done without complete success, and to a tightly cost constrained budget. MGR knew of the possible issues and problems with higher mileage larger capacity versions of the engine, but they cost cutted the components even further, and made no attempt to resolve the faults, which were all relatively easy to fix, and ensure that reliability of the 1.6 and 1.8 engines could be equal to the earlier pre 95 superior engine design that was the 1400cc.