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froggeh
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

I am very glad you are not running the country.


So am I ...

The feeling is mutual... ie I would rather a government do it...

Last edited by froggeh on 01:12 - 13 Feb 2007; edited 1 time in total
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

So why are you so strongly against them? Sure they can be used to kill people. So can plenty of the contents of the average kitchen.

All the best

Keith


Guns were invented to kill people. There is no room for them in everyday life.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Oh the Irony ! , I do actually remember seeing Charlie's Photos of his summer of love in Sweden (he knobbled a girlie called Milla) and was taken aback that there was always a gun in all the indoor photos.

infact I'm wondering how that guy is doing these days, not seen him since '02.

I better scrub your name off the Clay shooting day then,


Indeed.
I appreciate that Sweden has far more guns (PHOP)
But it is also sparsley populated.
It isn't the same issue.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
Guns were invented to kill people. There is no room for them in everyday life.


Lots of things were invented to kill people. And also have other uses. Personally I am quite happy for people to indulge in those other uses, as long as they are not greatly adversly affecting others.

We need to stop inflicting our opinions on others. If you are not affecting others then as far as I am concerned feel free to continue.

I have no wish to go fishing, but I don't want to see it banned. Same for hunting. Same for mountain climbing.

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:

Indeed.
I appreciate that Sweden has far more guns (PHOP)
But it is also sparsley populated.
It isn't the same issue.


Afraid I do not see the distinction. Already shown that population density does not equate to murder levels, and the USA has a population density roughly 50% higher than Sweden (and the USA population density in about a 1/12 of Englands).

All the best

Keith
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california_rookie
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Froggeh. I believe you are a bit confused by the ratings system. If you could possibly refrain from giving inappropriate ratings it'd be much appreciated.


For instance: You rated my post poorly stating that you disagree with it. I don't believe there is anything contained within it that is even possible for you to disagree with, let alone warrant a 'disagree' rating.

california_rookie wrote:
Thumbs Up to you, Kieth. The opinions you express are the very principals on which my 'fine' country was founded.
That was a personal note to Kieth in which the only issue to be taken was with my calling my country 'fine'. Which, I'm sure you noticed was in quotes, indicating there's something to be read into the word 'fine', which in this case was sarcasm. Which means I don't think this country is 'fine'. This being a belief we both share, you couldn't have disagreed with that.

california_rookie wrote:
While I will agree that if guns were completely illegal, save law enforcement and the military, that there would be far fewer homicides involving firearms, it would stand against our fundamental belief that the actions of the few should not damn the many.
The opinion expressed here was very similar to your own, which was based on fact, the only variation on which was my stating that America was founded on a belief that the minority shouldn't ruin it for the majority, which is also fact. Again, I can't find anything to disagree with here.

california_rookie wrote:
Plus, I think guns are keen! Wink
This is my personal opinion. If you were to disagree with it it would be like me saying to you, "Hey, Froggeh, my favorite color is green!" and you saying back, "I disagree, in fact, I think your favorite color is taupe.".

In short, despite the fact that one poor rating has absolutely no effect on my karma, I don't appreaciate recieving one when it is not warranted.
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 22:05 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
california_rookie wrote:
Froggeh. I believe you are a bit confused by the ratings system. If you could possibly refrain from giving inappropriate ratings it'd be much appreciated.


For instance: You rated my post poorly stating that you disagree with it. I don't believe there is anything contained within it that is even possible for you to disagree with, let alone warrant a 'disagree' rating.

california_rookie wrote:
Thumbs Up to you, Kieth. The opinions you express are the very principals on which my 'fine' country was founded.
That was a personal note to Kieth in which the only issue to be taken was with my calling my country 'fine'. Which, I'm sure you noticed was in quotes, indicating there's something to be read into the word 'fine', which in this case was sarcasm. Which means I don't think this country is 'fine'. This being a belief we both share, you couldn't have disagreed with that.

california_rookie wrote:
While I will agree that if guns were completely illegal, save law enforcement and the military, that there would be far fewer homicides involving firearms, it would stand against our fundamental belief that the actions of the few should not damn the many.
The opinion expressed here was very similar to your own, which was based on fact, the only variation on which was my stating that America was founded on a belief that the minority shouldn't ruin it for the majority, which is also fact. Again, I can't find anything to disagree with here.

california_rookie wrote:
Plus, I think guns are keen! Wink
This is my personal opinion. If you were to disagree with it it would be like me saying to you, "Hey, Froggeh, my favorite color is green!" and you saying back, "I disagree, in fact, I think your favorite color is taupe.".

In short, despite the fact that one poor rating has absolutely no effect on my karma, I don't appreaciate recieving one when it is not warranted.


I wouldn't worry dude. I gave you +ve one too b4 Smile - I happen to "disagree" with what you said.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man do you miss Siggi or something? , since before you used to argue with Siggi
while now you just keep getting your ass kicked by Keith's he ain't called the oracle
for nowt you know.

must be what 5 nil to Keith by now.

guns are great as defensive tools Chavs still depend on the Bum rush , which is a
popular war tactic but fell out of popularity after the invention of the machine gun,

this as keith pointsout makes the Chav who is about to murder the granny for
20p (which happened in bury a few years back and there was also a chav who murdered
a cabbie over a £1.25 fare), think twice , since the risk of serious injury and death
is much greater ,

Just compare your car driving style vs bike , you are much better on the corners since
the squires ride, but I bet you take them a helluva lot slower on bike than in a car ,
ie you got points in the car yet didn't for the bike in the same period. this is as the bike
has a much higher risk associated with it.
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Man do you miss Siggi or something? , since before you used to argue with Siggi
while now you just keep getting your ass kicked by Keith's he ain't called the oracle
for nowt you know.


Heh - I do miss Siggi... He was fun (and deep down I reckon not a bad bloke)

You only think Keith is beating me coz you agree with him.
I tend to take the opposite view.
Oracles can and are wrong.
Oracles don't have annoying sigs Wink

I don't have a problem with anyone tho.
And to be honest I ought to stop argueing online as it just causes shit. And 99% of folk are real nce in person (you for instance!)

(My friends don't call me an annoying arguementative bastard for nothing Smile)
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 01:22 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:

Indeed.
I appreciate that Sweden has far more guns (PHOP)
But it is also sparsley populated.
It isn't the same issue.


Afraid I do not see the distinction. Already shown that population density does not equate to murder levels, and the USA has a population density roughly 50% higher than Sweden (and the USA population density in about a 1/12 of Englands).

All the best

Keith

ok got to counter this.
Overall population density n US may be low.
But they have very very high hotspots of intense population.
You take a very "strict" country like Switzerland, or Sweden, compared to the ultimate freedom of the US with all the craziness that also manifests, then with guns you have a major difference.
America worship the gun
Switzerland doesn't
Canada doesn't

But in the end the figures speak for themsleves.
Where gun laws are tough ...deaths by guns are reduced(in most cases)
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 08:33 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Pretty much anywhere has a varying population density. Including Sweden, where it varies almost 150 fold between municipalities. And to compare that with an area of the UK where you think strict gun laws should apply, 12 of the 15 municipalities have a higher population density than Scotland.

The difference is not the guns, it is some the people. I do not see a few crazy people as an acceptable excuse to clamp down on everyone.


froggeh wrote:
But in the end the figures speak for themsleves.
Where gun laws are tough ...deaths by guns are reduced(in most cases)


No, the figures do not show that. They show that the murder rate is pretty independent of gun ownership levels, or indeed population density.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Pretty much anywhere has a varying population density. Including Sweden, where it varies almost 150 fold between municipalities. And to compare that with an area of the UK where you think strict gun laws should apply, 12 of the 15 municipalities have a higher population density than Scotland.

The difference is not the guns, it is some the people. I do not see a few crazy people as an acceptable excuse to clamp down on everyone.


froggeh wrote:
But in the end the figures speak for themsleves.
Where gun laws are tough ...deaths by guns are reduced(in most cases)


No, the figures do not show that. They show that the murder rate is pretty independent of gun ownership levels, or indeed population density.

All the best

Keith


Look at the figures again.
The US has 4.08 murders per 100,000 population, 6 suicides and 0.42 accidental
Canada 0.54, 2.65 and 0.15
Switzerland 0.5, 5.78

England is 0.12, 0.22, 0.01
So 34 times less likely to be murdered, and 42 times less accidents

Even Canada and Switzerland are more than 4 times more murders, and canada 15 times more accidents.

Yes Canada and Switzerland are not as extreme, because of
1) Less areas of high pop density
2) Different culture / less areas of extreme poverty.

But the figures are still many times higher then here, where guns are illegal.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 09:20 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
But the figures are still many times higher then here, where guns are illegal.


You are ignoring other countries. Such as the Netherlands. More lax gun laws than the UK, far higher population density and a lower murder rate. Same for Belgium.

Country with the highest murder rate is South Africa. At about 10 times the US rate. With a population density lower than Sweden. Or try Finland which has about half the murder rate of the US but with a very low population density and a high standard of living.

All the best

Keith
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JonB
Afraid of Mileage



Joined: 03 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
To be quite honest Froggeh, you emigrated to Sweden, therefore the fact you still discuss UK issues is beyond a joke. Just like the way you are still allowed to vote about what goes on here.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jon B wrote:
To be quite honest Froggeh, you emigrated to Sweden, therefore the fact you still discuss UK issues is beyond a joke. Just like the way you are still allowed to vote about what goes on here.



well i haven't gone yet...

and i will still be spending quite a bit of time back here.
my family and friends are here.
i will have a room, belongings including a bike here.

England will always be home. so why on earth shouldn't i dicuss issues here?


and as for this issue - it is my point of view, and the fact that it's England is irrelevant.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 10:45 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:
But the figures are still many times higher then here, where guns are illegal.


You are ignoring other countries. Such as the Netherlands. More lax gun laws than the UK, far higher population density and a lower murder rate. Same for Belgium.

Country with the highest murder rate is South Africa. At about 10 times the US rate. With a population density lower than Sweden. Or try Finland which has about half the murder rate of the US but with a very low population density and a high standard of living.

All the best

Keith


South Africa (and Brazil) have very high rates because of poverty.
Also, when it comes to population density, you have to look at centres, not simply total area/population.
S.Africa has one of the most dangerous cities in the world... Johannesburg
But I think you'll find that even using your crude maths, that Sweden is more sparsely populated than South Africa (but that's splitting hairs)
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
South Africa (and Brazil) have very high rates because of poverty.


Quite, but hardly applies to the Netherlands or Belgium.

Point is that it is not the guns that cause the issues. Nor ultimatly the population density. Loads of other factors.

Quite surprised how high Finland is.

As to voting in the UK, I am in 2 minds. However if you are resident in Sweden and get a vote there then I do not believe you should vote in the UK.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:
South Africa (and Brazil) have very high rates because of poverty.


Quite, but hardly applies to the Netherlands or Belgium.

Point is that it is not the guns that cause the issues. Nor ultimatly the population density. Loads of other factors.

Quite surprised how high Finland is.

As to voting in the UK, I am in 2 minds. However if you are resident in Sweden and get a vote there then I do not believe you should vote in the UK.

All the best

Keith


To be honest I was surprised myself (about the vote). I sort of understand people not liking it, but then I think of all the people already excercising this right, and well what do I do?

I would happily lose the right, but so long as other folk are using it, then I'll have to.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 13 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

If you have no Swedish vote then I could not argue against you voting here.

If you are there, and have a local vote though (err, mean Swedish general elections) then I think that, with 1 person, 1 vote, then you should realistically not have a UK vote (and morally you should only use one or the other).

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 14 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

If you have no Swedish vote then I could not argue against you voting here.

If you are there, and have a local vote though (err, mean Swedish general elections) then I think that, with 1 person, 1 vote, then you should realistically not have a UK vote (and morally you should only use one or the other).

All the best

Keith


Not sure what I think, but moral scales vary from person to person.
Some people think sex outside of marriage is immoral... I don't
I don't think that inside the EU, having a vote for your home country and the one you live in...for a period of time, is morrally wrong.
I wouldn't object to not having the vote... Just doesn't strike me as morally wrong.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 15 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I beg to differ
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 15 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
I beg to differ


Fair enough.

Although, I have been doing some investigation into this, over the last few days.

It seems I will not get a Swedish vote for a couple of years. I will get a UK vote for general election only.
I will get a Euro vote.
If I stay away for 15 years I will then lose that vote


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2001/07/04/envote.xml

It seems that in fact the Labour party has reduced the rights of expat voters, while the tories have actively campained against reducing the rights...maybe I should jump ship?

(Labour reduced the number of years in the last parliament from 20 years to 15)

It is actually more relevant to me than I previously thought...
My pension(s) are in the UK, both private and State (I have been working for 18 years thus paying into my state pension.

I have savings in this country, which I have confirmed is fine when I move.

I will be looking into buying a small house or flat in England, and renting it out.

All of this will certainly make me keep a close eye on UK policies, especially when it comes to the economy.


Also, don't forget the number of expat Iraqis who voted in their recent elections...many of whom I am sure will never go back (can't blame them tho)
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 15 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I still think I should be allowed to ride my GSXR1100 to a gun range with an FN FAL over my shoulder AS LONG AS I HAVE A LICENSE TO DO SO. Smile

Since the ban on handguns the murder rate with illegal weapons has risen. At least with licensing the police know where the guns are.
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