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| killa |
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killa
Won't Shut Up
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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 Posted: 11:41 - 06 Feb 2007  Post subject: Cannabis killers |
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On the news the other night was a story about an ex service man who served in iraq, after which he asked for some mental help because he didn’t feel all to well after the shi* he’d seen in action.
Unfortunately for him he got no such help and finally lost it, killing a house full of relatives with brutal force. Walked to the station and handed himself in.
The news report went on, and then as the reporter wrapped up the first part of the story it went a little like this….
“…..he said he was feeling odd, like he could kill someone, he wasn’t happy and his mental condition had deteriorated over the past month…....he was a regular cannabis user”
WTF….what are people to think? So this guy would have been ok if he drank Stella regularly?
Having post traumatic stress from war, and regularly smoking cannabis isn’t going to help your mental stability. Was this out of shear stupidity we all know you can be a rifleman by running quite a bit and doing press ups, with next to no qualifications. Or did he smoke it because it relaxed him?
What ever he smoked it for most people watching that report about the diabolical service he got from the Governments NHS would come across like this “…Army man, served country, stressed, smoke a bit of wacky backy……went wacko and slaughtered his relatives”
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angryjonny
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Itchy
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Posted: 13:09 - 06 Feb 2007  Post subject: |
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true true , its also spun around loners etc, oh right so all lonely people are nuts? ,
and video games etc ,
purely for mass appeal and stuff that affirms peoples prejudices.
Oh and it also draws fire away from the government's Iraq problems and after care of soldiers problems,
since ITV/BBC and sometimes CH4 are government backed propaganda machines as well as the news papers , they shouldn't be trusted.
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| innominate |
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innominate
Brolly Dolly
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 16:09 - 06 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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Cannabis can kick off existing mental conditions in people...
However it does not cause the problems in the first place.
Generally consensus amongst the weedy ones among us is that Cannabis has to remain illegal, otherwise its legality will stop the profits of cannabis derivatives developed by big Pharma companies.
As if you can grow a bud to stop your symptoms instead of paying £xxx per month on medicines.
Thats my synopsis on the whole debate as ran through on possbily the most informative canna site I have ever found https://www.uk420.com
Personally I believe the prohibition and continuing negative hype surrounding the weed is purely because business thinks that wide spread cannabis use will lead to a lowering of productivity amongst the workforce & hence less profits for the shareholders.
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I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable. |
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| nrml76 |
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nrml76
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McGee
O RLY?
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innominate
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colin1
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Mister James
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GodzGift
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ColdInsomnia
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| Posted: 01:00 - 25 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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Oh for God's sake. Like most other drugs Cannabis is dangerous if over-used. So is alcohol, and nicotine.
Alcohol is directly, and in-directly responsible for huge amounts of deaths, for example by drink-driving, and countless assaults, acts of vandalism and plenty of other things. Most never make the news. Why? Because alcohol is simply part of our culture, if alcohol were banned there would be riots.
But compare alcohol to cannabis and cannabis can, arguably, called a far 'safer' drug. It's not possible to overdose on THC, and whilst being drunk puts you into a vulnerable, aggressive state of mind, being stoned puts you into a lazy, happy state of mind.
I know which I'd prefer to come across if a group of chavs were in the street.
Even if you don't approve of cannabis, one thing you cannot argue is that it will never be stamped out. There's just too strong a market for it, it's about time that the government realized this fact and began to properly regulate legal sales of the substance, and educate people about safe usage of the drug.
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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
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| nrml76 |
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nrml76
Brolly Dolly
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| Posted: 13:12 - 25 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| ColdInsomnia wrote: |
Alcohol is directly, and in-directly responsible for huge amounts of deaths, for example by drink-driving, and countless assaults, acts of vandalism and plenty of other things. Most never make the news. Why? Because alcohol is simply part of our culture, if alcohol were banned there would be riots. |
Agreed.
| ColdInsomnia wrote: |
But compare alcohol to cannabis and cannabis can, arguably, called a far 'safer' drug. It's not possible to overdose on THC, and whilst being drunk puts you into a vulnerable, aggressive state of mind, being stoned puts you into a lazy, happy state of mind. |
Cannabis can have very unpredictable effects in susceptible individuals. It is almost impossible to predict who would react in a dangerous manner.
| ColdInsomnia wrote: |
I know which I'd prefer to come across if a group of chavs were in the street. |
People with acute mental illness can be extremely dangerous! It is well known that mentally ill people can summon extreme reserves of physical strength and determination.
| ColdInsomnia wrote: |
Even if you don't approve of cannabis, one thing you cannot argue is that it will never be stamped out. There's just too strong a market for it, it's about time that the government realized this fact and began to properly regulate legal sales of the substance, and educate people about safe usage of the drug. |
Just because there is a strong market for it does not make it appropriate to leagalise it. Widespread use of cannabis does have the potential to cause problems with workplace productivity and education. Unlike with alcohol, inebriation due to cannabis would be difficult to detect, because of the lack of smell on the breath, and less effects on co-ordination.
Would you be happy to have a mechanic who is high on cannabis working on the brakes of your bike or car? Would you let a surgeon high on cannabis operate on you?
Unfortunately, there is no easy method of detecting this in everyday life, unlike with alcohol, where the effects can be spotted fairly easily in most cases.
While I accept that people who use it shouldn't be punished, unless they are endangering the safety of others, legalizing it would make it socially acceptable to the general public, with the possibility of creating a similar problem to alcoholism in todays society.
There is also the danger, that it may lead on to widespread drug abuse in mainstream society, with people wanting to try 'something a bit stronger', when they get used to cannabis.
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innominate
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plugger147
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SoND
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| Posted: 04:10 - 26 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| nrml76 wrote: |
Cannabis can have very unpredictable effects in susceptible individuals. It is almost impossible to predict who would react in a dangerous manner.
People with acute mental illness can be extremely dangerous! It is well known that mentally ill people can summon extreme reserves of physical strength and determination. |
Smoking weed isn't going to make someone with a mental illness suddenly break out and kick the fuck out of someone else. Alcohol will have a much greater influence in that type of situation. How often do you hear of a stoned person feeling the urge to start a fight? You don't because it doesn't make you want to.
| nrml76 wrote: |
Just because there is a strong market for it does not make it appropriate to leagalise it. |
Why not? The market is huge and millions of people are being forced to smoke contaminated, low quality cannabis which can have serious effects on your health and funds organised crime. This is a direct result of prohibition and can be stopped easily. You wouldn't drink a pint if there was glass, sand, beeswax, coffee, boot polish etc in it so why the hell should we be forced to smoke polluted weed?
Living Under Prohibition
| nrml76 wrote: | Widespread use of cannabis does have the potential to cause problems with workplace productivity and education. Unlike with alcohol, inebriation due to cannabis would be difficult to detect, because of the lack of smell on the breath, and less effects on co-ordination.
Would you be happy to have a mechanic who is high on cannabis working on the brakes of your bike or car? Would you let a surgeon high on cannabis operate on you?
Unfortunately, there is no easy method of detecting this in everyday life, unlike with alcohol, where the effects can be spotted fairly easily in most cases. |
If it was legalised it doesn't mean that all of a sudden everyone is going to get stoned and go to work. If that's what someone wants then chances are they're already doing it. The effects of alcohol can be spotted so easily because it has a huge impact on a persons motor skills and judgement. I don't have a problem with my mechanic getting stoned so long as he's competant and it doesn't affect his work, which is ultimately up to him to decide.
What are cannabis users like?
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While I accept that people who use it shouldn't be punished, unless they are endangering the safety of others, legalizing it would make it socially acceptable to the general public, with the possibility of creating a similar problem to alcoholism in todays society.
There is also the danger, that it may lead on to widespread drug abuse in mainstream society, with people wanting to try 'something a bit stronger', when they get used to cannabis. |
It's already getting socially acceptable to the general public regardless of whether or not it's legal or not. People are catching on that the government is full of lies when it comes to telling people the 'dangers' of drugs.
Getting stoned day in, day out is not going to have the same effects as being an alcoholic. You can lead a perfectly normal life even if you're stoned 90% of the time. I'm not saying it'll be the same for everyone but it's up to the person to decide whether or not it's having a negative impact on them.
Click Here to read why the gateway theory is a load of bollocks.
Nrml, what experience do you have with drugs?
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 15:22 - 26 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| SoND wrote: |
Smoking weed isn't going to make someone with a mental illness suddenly break out and kick the fuck out of someone else. Alcohol will have a much greater influence in that type of situation. How often do you hear of a stoned person feeling the urge to start a fight? You don't because it doesn't make you want to.
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The argument is not that someone will do it because they are on a high at that moment in time, but because long-term use has caused damage to their brain, or has exacerbated an existing condition. Your analogy is slightly flawed, as it refers to the short term effects, not the long-term.
Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be Excessive Beer -> Liver damage = Excessive Weed -> paranoia and related mental conditions?
Obviously the former is far more common place, but it's only a rough analogy!
| Quote: |
Getting stoned day in, day out is not going to have the same effects as being an alcoholic. You can lead a perfectly normal life even if you're stoned 90% of the time. I'm not saying it'll be the same for everyone but it's up to the person to decide whether or not it's having a negative impact on them.
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This is more relevant to the original point, in that this chap may have been one of those more adversely affected than the majority of you Toking Types.
It's obviously not acceptable to discover this by waiting to see whether he kills several close relatives, so there should be open debate and research on the long-term medical effects - ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE.
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Click Here to read why the gateway theory is a load of bollocks.
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From a quick skim through the information on the above URL, and with no cross-referencing, it seems that the author is actually saying that the gateway 'effect' as actually quite small, as opposed to non-existent.
Even if only 3% of cannabis users go on to take Heroin as claimed, that 3% of the millions smoking pot is enough to form a substantial group of hard-core junkies who will fund their habit by prolific crime.
While we may argue over the scale, it is a serious aspect of the topic that deserves to be examined closely. In my opinion, a huge amount of the misery caused by crime in this country is down to heroin users - and by definition, cannabis use contributes to that, even if we can't agree on the actual proportion by which it does so.
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Nrml, what experience do you have with drugs?
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While it's valid to ask that question out of personal interest, it's important to note that one doesn't have to have been engulfed in the drug culture to be able to read information and form opinions on it.
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| innominate |
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innominate
Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 16:55 - 26 Feb 2007  Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The argument is not that someone will do it because they are on a high at that moment in time, but because long-term use has caused damage to their brain, or has exacerbated an existing condition. Your analogy is slightly flawed, as it refers to the short term effects, not the long-term. |
The long term effects of cannabis have not been fully researched, I will give you that. The problems described above are definatly caused by the short term effects of cannabis.
The weed may excacerbate exisiting mental conditions to the point of full blown pshycosis (wether violent or not) however this will wear off as the effects of the cannabis wears off.
Its does not create any new mental ilnesses. At least as far as the inadequate research has shown us so far.
| Quote: | From a quick skim through the information on the above URL, and with no cross-referencing, it seems that the author is actually saying that the gateway 'effect' as actually quite small, as opposed to non-existent.
Even if only 3% of cannabis users go on to take Heroin as claimed, that 3% of the millions smoking pot is enough to form a substantial group of hard-core junkies who will fund their habit by prolific crime. |
The Gateway theory can apply to any mind altering stimulant, I would say a small percentage of tea drinkers have moved onto Heroin later in life. Do we put Tea on the same prohibition as Cannabis? Obviously not...
Legalisation would remove some of the peer pressure of the "Gateway" effect. Ie a dodgy dealer will offer you smack/crack/coke as well as your £10 bag of skunk.
If you went the offy for it, then you are not going to get plied with smack as well (unless you are on a really dodgy estate).
I speak from the POV of a moderately heavy user of skunk (for recreational purposes) who is engaged to a Psychiatrist.
I am no cannaevangelist, & I know it can affect some people very badley indeed. However its more of a personal freedoms issue for me.
I smoke, I don't deal & I don't put any money into the criminals pockets. Why should I be fined/imprisoned for this if unlucky enough to be caught?
The whole illegality of (most) Drugs is purely Political these days anyway, it has passed the boundaries of any rational/scientific debate into the territory of....
O THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Versus STOP OPRESSING ME U FACIST SCUM!!!
Neither argument helps anybody & I would like to see both groups drowned/castrated/hung, cause they piss me off something rotten.
____________________
I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable. |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 17:39 - 26 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| innominate wrote: |
The weed may excacerbate exisiting mental conditions to the point of full blown pshycosis (wether violent or not) however this will wear off as the effects of the cannabis wears off.
Its does not create any new mental ilnesses. At least as far as the inadequate research has shown us so far.
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All quite possible, as you point out, there isn't a huge amount of conclusive evidence. That being said, I doubt that in this case it would be much consolation to know that had the gentleman in question not butchered his family (and had chosen to give up cannabis) any effects may well have faded with time.
Killa's original post posited that there was absolutely no relevance in mentioning cannabis use when detailing the facts of the tragic incident in question. Our more factual argument is mostly over matters of degree, rather than the existence of a potential problem.
| Quote: |
The Gateway theory can apply to any mind altering stimulant, I would say a small percentage of tea drinkers have moved onto Heroin later in life. Do we put Tea on the same prohibition as Cannabis? Obviously not...
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I think you are muddling your analogies somewhat, as heroin tends not to be on the same Tesco's aisle as Earl Grey.......at least in my area!
I agree with the wider point, but would remind you that while breakfast tea may be a gateway to stronger teas and coffee, it is unlikely to lead to a habit that requires you to burgle 3 houses a day to get your fix!
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I smoke, I don't deal & I don't put any money into the criminals pockets. Why should I be fined/imprisoned for this if unlucky enough to be caught?
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Despite my distaste for 'stoner' culture, I recognise both the medical benefits of da 'erbal and those of it's legalisation. I find wandering stoners no more annoying than loud drunks, although the smell makes me feel faintly sick. In my work environment I secretly find heavy cannabis smugglers/users quite easy to deal with, because it takes all the aggression and cheek out of them. I tend to favour a (fairly heavily regulated) legalisation of cannabis, although I believe that it (along with smoking) should only be allowed in private homes - and that mostly due to the smell.
| Quote: |
The whole illegality of (most) Drugs is purely Political these days anyway, it has passed the boundaries of any rational/scientific debate into the territory of....
O THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Versus STOP OPRESSING ME U FACIST SCUM!!!
Neither argument helps anybody & I would like to see both groups drowned/castrated/hung, cause they piss me off something rotten. |
I tend to agree, and thank you for one of the least-biased arguments for cannabis use/legalisation I have ever encounter.
I don't doubt that most people could smoke large amounts without any tragic side effects, I just get a tad vexed when pro-dopers refuse to acknowledge that there are SOME risks involved - and that those risks do not always confine themselves to the person smoking.
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nrml76
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| killa |
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killa
Won't Shut Up
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| Posted: 08:28 - 27 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | Killa's original post posited that there was absolutely no relevance in mentioning cannabis use when detailing the facts of the tragic incident in question. Our more factual argument is mostly over matters of degree, rather than the existence of a potential problem.. |
I didn’t say there was no relevance in mentioning it, it was the way it was put across that annoyed me.
The reporter kind of wrapped up the section with “…….and he smoked weed”.
It will stick in peoples minds who know little about the drugs effects, ‘he went ape shit after being in the army and smoking weed’.
It does baffle me why someone who leaves the army, finds it hard coping with everyday life and then picks ups some weed.
If I’m having a tough time mentally, I don’t go straight for the weed and I’ve been smoking it for almost ten years.
The big difference there, is that before I’d smoke weed to make everything more interesting, playing computer games, going into town, going to the cinema etc…. I’ve learnt to only use it where I think it’s appropriate, I’ve learnt to enjoy it.
Weed should never be legalised, it isn’t for everyone, as I have found out.
If it was legalised there would be far too many people abusing that law, and too many ‘unstable’ people taking it up.
And yeah, it would breed a whole new section of idiots to deal with, no doubt money would be involved and suing.
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G
The Voice of Reason
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Mister James
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| Posted: 15:28 - 27 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| killa wrote: |
I didn’t say there was no relevance in mentioning it, it was the way it was put across that annoyed me.
The reporter kind of wrapped up the section with “…….and he smoked weed”.
It will stick in peoples minds who know little about the drugs effects, ‘he went ape shit after being in the army and smoking weed’.
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Something had to go last! That's just sentence-structure for you! Only people who aren't capable of paying attention are going to latch onto the last item alone.......possibly people who have burnt their reasoning centres out by cannabis abuse! 
| Quote: |
It does baffle me why someone who leaves the army, finds it hard coping with everyday life and then picks ups some weed.
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As I'm sure you know, you can't take drugs in the forces, so it's possibly something he did as a kid and wanted to get back into, or something he wanted to try now that he was able to?
| Quote: |
If I’m having a tough time mentally, I don’t go straight for the weed and I’ve been smoking it for almost ten years.
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Without meaning to be too argumentative, surely your experience in this only supports the impression you believe the reporter was giving, because it suggests that bad things can and do happen if one abuses weed during a time of stress?
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killa
Won't Shut Up
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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| Posted: 15:56 - 27 Feb 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | Without meaning to be too argumentative, surely your experience in this only supports the impression you believe the reporter was giving, because it suggests that bad things can and do happen if one abuses weed during a time of stress? |
Does anyone think that any mind altering substances help when you are stressed?
Answer..….yes, some users of drugs would say that they use class A, C and D to relieve stress. (Fags, Cocaine and alcohol are class A)
Does anyone think that they could also help you during post war, traumatic stress?
Answer…...I should hope not.
Take the story of Justin in Hollyoaks, it’s produced by people who are ‘street wise’, up to date. The program is watched by many many young and old generations, in this country.
I laughed out loud when the cannabis story was introduced, watching a family crumble as he turned to crime and had out bursts of temporary insanity.
If I wasn’t a drug user, I’d be left with the image in my head of someone toking a bong and then knifing a granny for some spare change.
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GodzGift
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killa
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 18 years, 301 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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