Help & FAQs    Search BCF    Members    Groups    Events Calendar
Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Iraqi/Iranian Waters

 Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:43 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Iraqi/Iranian Waters Reply with quote
I'm really not a fan of the Mail, but i thought the following article was very interesting :-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomment.html?in_article_id=445896&in_page_id=1787

Basically it says that there is NO agreed sea border between Iraq and Iran. So for the Iranians to state that we were in their territiory is stupid. But its equally stupid for the UK to claim they weren't. See the quote below -

"A few hours after the 15 were seized, Cdre Lambert said: 'There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated.'"

Zen Dog
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:54 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
What a load of tosh.

No-one has denied that the border has often been disputed - Iran and Iraq are hardly the only countries to have argued over such things!

To state that the incident was 'a few hundred yards' inside this 'fake' border is also nonsense, as it was actually 1.7 nautical miles - a hefty measure in anyone's book.

Iran obviously accepts the borders as stated by the UK, because they quickly changed their original stated coordinates when they realised that they had fallen short of their own waters by some margin. The captain of the vessel searched by the RN also indicated that he was content he was in Iraqi waters.

The Daily Mail is trying to make trouble for the government, and Craig Murray appears to be trying to simply make himself look more important than he actually is, by harping on about secret briefings and top-level decisions.
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 17:28 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
To state that the incident was 'a few hundred yards' inside this 'fake' border is also nonsense, as it was actually 1.7 nautical miles - a hefty measure in anyone's book.

I didnt! Or do you mean the Daily Mail?...
Quote:
Iran obviously accepts the borders as stated by the UK, because they quickly changed their original stated coordinates when they realised that they had fallen short of their own waters by some margin. The captain of the vessel searched by the RN also indicated that he was content he was in Iraqi waters.

You're right about this, which is what confuses me about the whole thing.
Quote:
The Daily Mail is trying to make trouble for the government, and Craig Murray appears to be trying to simply make himself look more important than he actually is, by harping on about secret briefings and top-level decisions.

What about the guy quoted above though, whats his agenda?

I dont suppose it matters now, since they are being let go. I just worry that we are being lied to just as much as the Iranian population are. The whole thing is much less clear cut than is being portrayed to the population, on both sides.

Zen Dog
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

-Savage-
World Chat Champion



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 17:38 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't flame me for this,,,, i got it sent in a txt message.


15 British Sailors and marines captured after straying into Iranian waters, 14 men and one woman.

It's obvious who was reading the bloody map then!

Laughing sorry lol
____________________
My Bikes - - - Royal Enfield 500 with sidecar, VFR800, CBR600FX,
Peugeot Speedfight 100, Kymco Hipster 125, GSXR750K5, Jawa TS 350
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 01:33 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zen Dog wrote:

I didnt! Or do you mean the Daily Mail?..


Of course, it was one of the comments in the article you quoted.

Quote:

What about the guy quoted above though, whats his agenda?


Commodore Lambert was providing a possible explanation in order to allow the Iranians an easy route to back down. You'll notice that the key tenet of all British diplomatic efforts throughout this has been to keep things low-key.

Quote:

I dont suppose it matters now, since they are being let go. I just worry that we are being lied to just as much as the Iranian population are. The whole thing is much less clear cut than is being portrayed to the population, on both sides.


I don't believe that is the case at all, and I don't see why people are always so quick to assume that the armed forces are lying - or indeed are involved in shadowy conspiracies.
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 07:48 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
I don't believe that is the case at all, and I don't see why people are always so quick to assume that the armed forces are lying - or indeed are involved in shadowy conspiracies.


I don't assume that the armed forces are lying. In fact I generally assume they are telling the truth, they've got enough on their plate already without having to lie about stuff!

I assume that politicians are lying, especially when its in their interests to do so. Lying is what politicians do for a living after all...

Zen Dog
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 08:21 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
So where is the lack of full story?

The military have indicated that they were on a routine stop-and-search tasking, of which they had recently carried out a previous 66. They have provided accurate positional data for the incident, backed up with evidence, while the Iranians have provided nothing but porkies, propaganda and brinksmanship.

They've also pinched all our kit again.
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:15 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
So where is the lack of full story?


We weren't told that the sea border is disputed. In fact, the story we were told indicates that the border is absolute and there can be no doubt. This isn't true apparently.

If they'd said "The border is disputed, but even taking that into account, we're still confident that we were in indisputedly Iraqi waters.", i wouldn't be so bothered. But the authorities stated an absolute border which apparently doesn't exist.

Mister James wrote:
Commodore Lambert was providing a possible explanation in order to allow the Iranians an easy route to back down. You'll notice that the key tenet of all British diplomatic efforts throughout this has been to keep things low-key.


Yeah, im sure the top priority of a british military officer who's just lost 15 crew is delicate points of Iranian politics. I'm sure he was being quoted all over Iran by all the Iranians who respect his opinion.

And of course we are going for a low key approach. We're already fighting 2 unwinnable wars, we cant really afford another one.

Zen Dog
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 11:02 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zen Dog wrote:

We weren't told that the sea border is disputed. In fact, the story we were told indicates that the border is absolute and there can be no doubt. This isn't true apparently.


Where were you following the story then? I was aware that the territorial border was disputed by the Iranians before this incident happened, and I've seen no evidence that anyone tried to hide the fact.

Quote:

If they'd said "The border is disputed, but even taking that into account, we're still confident that we were in indisputedly Iraqi waters.", i wouldn't be so bothered. But the authorities stated an absolute border which apparently doesn't exist.


Disputing something does not make it null and void. You may have noticed that the Iranians tend to take a rather fluid approach to international law and conventions.

The RN was patrolling well within the internationally recognised limits of Iraqi waters. That the Iranians have previously disputed this is irrelevant - especially as they themselves were so keen to provide information that 'proved' the RN personnel were over the border as recognised by us - a de facto admission that they recognise an 'absolute' limit.

Quote:

Yeah, im sure the top priority of a british military officer who's just lost 15 crew is delicate points of Iranian politics.


Ermm, that would be exactly what his priority would be, as he would be much smarter and better-briefed than you seem to be. One doesn't get to be a flag officer in the RN without being aware of such things, and one doesn't get to be the lead spokesman in such an affair without being schooled in the political dimension of one's statements.


Quote:

And of course we are going for a low key approach. We're already fighting 2 unwinnable wars, we cant really afford another one.


Afghanistan is perfectly winnable. The war in Iraq was won in weeks - it's the poorly-planned counter-insurgency campaign that is not going too well.
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Itchy
Super Spammer



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:36 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


Afghanistan is perfectly winnable. The war in Iraq was won in weeks - it's the poorly-planned counter-insurgency campaign that is not going too well.


doubt it, not being able to hold onto territory and to achieve ones objectives means we lose, though we did suceed in putting a gas pipe line down. Even nukes won't win Afganistan
____________________
Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 14:53 - 05 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wasn't aware that there were "internationally recognised limits of Iraqi waters". Can you show were I can find out more information about where those limits are?
Quote:
I was aware that the territorial border was disputed by the Iranians.

It takes 2 sides to dispute a border.

Zen Dog
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

craigie b
Citizen Smith



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 22:30 - 12 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
For what its worth I watched a BBC program about the war in Iraq, in which embedded reporters followed marines and soldiers around in Iraq. For the life of me I cannot remember the name of the show.

One episode documented a marine ship being attacked and one marine was killed. The MOD stated, irrefutably, that the marines were attacked by insurgents. The show investigated and had video evidence clearly showing where the marine was killed. By comparing the landmarks from the millitary issue maps to the ones visible in the video it was clear that the incident happened in a different location to which the MOD stated. This was because if it had been where the programme allegded then the death would have been from friendly fire.

The evidence was compelling but the MOD ignored it, stating the case was closed.

Quote:
An initial investigation carried out into Mr Maddison's death found that the marine had been killed in an enemy ambush.


https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/6187414.stm

It was only due to the ample evidence supplied by the BBC that the case was ever correctly addressed, since the MOD did not want to admit responsibility for the killing of our own people.

My point is, even though I would like to believe the Navy is correct about where our troops where, I still take their word with a massive pinch of salt as they will always try to cover their own tracks.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Itchy
Super Spammer



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 06:56 - 13 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
craigie b wrote:
My point is, even though I would like to believe the Navy is correct about where our troops where, I still take their word with a massive pinch of salt as they will always try to cover their own tracks.


true , much like operation grapple which was our fake H bomb testing which for the truth to come out took nigh 50 years,

fot theFalklands naval task force to admit the took nuclear bombs took 20 years etc.

its very propagandised
____________________
Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 18 years, 303 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
 You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.10 Sec - Server Load: 0.87 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 93.06 Kb