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| Yoko |
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Yoko
Brolly Dolly
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
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 Posted: 17:49 - 03 Apr 2007  Post subject: Article in the Guardian |
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| Quote: | I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are.
It is also unacceptable that these British captives should be made to talk on television and say things that they may regret later. If the Iranians put duct tape over their mouths, like we do to our captives, they wouldn't be able to talk at all. Of course they'd probably find it even harder to breathe - especially with a bag over their head - but at least they wouldn't be humiliated.
And what's all this about allowing the captives to write letters home saying they are all right? It's time the Iranians fell into line with the rest of the civilised world: they should allow their captives the privacy of solitary confinement. That's one of the many privileges the US grants to its captives in Guantánamo Bay.
The true mark of a civilised country is that it doesn't rush into charging people whom it has arbitrarily arrested in places it's just invaded. The inmates of Guantánamo, for example, have been enjoying all the privacy they want for almost five years, and the first inmate has only just been charged. What a contrast to the disgraceful Iranian rush to parade their captives before the cameras!
What's more, it is clear that the Iranians are not giving their British prisoners any decent physical exercise. The US military make sure that their Iraqi captives enjoy PT. This takes the form of exciting "stress positions", which the captives are expected to hold for hours on end so as to improve their stomach and calf muscles. A common exercise is where they are made to stand on the balls of their feet and then squat so that their thighs are parallel to the ground. This creates intense pain and, finally, muscle failure. It's all good healthy fun and has the bonus that the captives will confess to anything to get out of it.
And this brings me to my final point. It is clear from her TV appearance that servicewoman Turney has been put under pressure. The newspapers have persuaded behavioural psychologists to examine the footage and they all conclude that she is "unhappy and stressed".
What is so appalling is the underhand way in which the Iranians have got her "unhappy and stressed". She shows no signs of electrocution or burn marks and there are no signs of beating on her face. This is unacceptable. If captives are to be put under duress, such as by forcing them into compromising sexual positions, or having electric shocks to their genitals, they should be photographed, as they were in Abu Ghraib. The photographs should then be circulated around the civilised world so that everyone can see exactly what has been going on.
As Stephen Glover pointed out in the Daily Mail, perhaps it would not be right to bomb Iran in retaliation for the humiliation of our servicemen, but clearly the Iranian people must be made to suffer - whether by beefing up sanctions, as the Mail suggests, or simply by getting President Bush to hurry up and invade, as he intends to anyway, and bring democracy and western values to the country, as he has in Iraq.
• Terry Jones is a film director, actor and Python |
I can see where he's/she's coming form. I don’t mean that having 15 people held prisoner whether they were in Iranian waters or not is right but the comparison between how they are being treated and how we (UK & America) treat our prisoners is very err interesting!
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| greatmoorred |
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greatmoorred
Nearly there...
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
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Posted: 19:39 - 03 Apr 2007  Post subject: |
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Very good.
I get his point. People in glass houses....etc.
I still think we should send the special forces in to snatch them though 
Keep it really low key, and then the Iranians would have to admit to "losing" them, when nthey open the cell door to find them all missing. |
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| Mudskipper |
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Mudskipper
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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Posted: 19:47 - 03 Apr 2007  Post subject: |
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Bit out of order IMO to compare guantanamo to this situation.
Detaining scum who set IED's for us and mortar us daily is a far cry from kidnapping servicemen (which is a blatent act of war).
Might have expected such a distasteful attitude from that paper, just find it sad that so many hand-wringing liberals in this country agree with it.
The propaganda war wins again.
Wishing our guys home safely.
Mudskipper 
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| pwntifex |
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pwntifex
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
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| G |
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| killa |
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killa
Won't Shut Up
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
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| killa |
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killa
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Mudskipper |
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Mudskipper
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| Posted: 09:33 - 04 Apr 2007 Post subject: |
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| G wrote: | | Mudskipper wrote: | Bit out of order IMO to compare guantanamo to this situation. |
Yes, because I'd agree with the author that guantanamo is much worse from a country trying to take the high moral ground. |
The Iranians kidnapped easy (and perfect for propaganda) targets, a handful in a dingy who couldn't even consider resisting.
Do you think they'd have dared try to detain anyone if it was HMS Cornwall they'd come across? Would they fcuk. They're cowardly bastards.
| G wrote: |
| Quote: | Detaining scum who set IED's for us and mortar us daily is a far cry from kidnapping servicemen (which is a blatent act of war).
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Wasn't a lot of the original people in there's 'blantant act of war' mortaring 'us' when we had effectively declared war on their country and were bombing it? |
No, they're mortaring us now. Every day. Because they can see progress, reconstruction and the decline of the old regime and it's terror and they want to hinder it to keep us here. Those behind insurgency, all over the middle east and afghan, ultimately want an Islam vs West all out war. And THAT is exactly what Iran want.
And it is painfully obvious that the TV displays are pure gold propaganda to show them as 'the reasonable, civilised guys' so that the brainwashed, blind, and stupid can say 'oh aren't iran so reasonable, ooh we're much worse, aren't we'.
The thing that disgusts me most in the article is it's using OUR servicemen and what they're going through (please tell me you don't think it's been all tea and smiles away from the camera) to have a dig at fcukwits Bliar and Bush. Bang out of order.
Maybe if the liberals showed a bit of backbone, a bit of honour, a bit of respect for those WHO DIE SO THAT THEY ARE FREE TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS then I might have a bit more respect, and a bit less contempt for them. 
Mudskipper
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| G |
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G
The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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Posted: 10:17 - 04 Apr 2007  Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | it's now obvious why we don't want to trust them with nuclear weapons. |
And based on that, there’s no way I would trust our country with Nuclear weapons, seeing that we’ve invaded two other countries recently, rather than capturing some troops probing around on our borders.
However, I do and even mostly with the US as well, because we do have overwhelming conventional weapons that lets us conquer other countries without nuclear weapons.
I most definitely don’t want to see Iran with nuclear weapons. But then I think we are giving them every reason to absolutely need a nuclear deterrent.
I tire of people dismissing opinions because they are ‘trendy’, as if an opinion being popular should make it void.
I have long being going on about Guantanamo and I do think in this case the comparison is relevant for those criticising Iran.
I’m not suggesting people shouldn’t criticise Iran, just that it would be a bit hypocritical to do so, yet to protect
Mudskipper
We have ‘kidnapped’ many people, sometimes taken them when they’re sleeping. Do you think we’d have done the same if they had been sitting behind a massive armoured fortress?
Cowardly bastards us, obviously 
I am happy to show respect for those who die to protect their and our freedoms.
That is not, from what I can see, what ‘we’ have been doing recently.
Tell me, if a foreign country invaded the UK and set up a new government, would you go along with it? Would you support and help them?
I can be pretty damn sure I’d be one of the ones mortaring them. I’d see it as a case of trying to protect my freedoms, even if I was told what was happening was bringing peace and prosperity to my country.
Have we not killed many, many thousands of ‘innocent’ non-combatants in our recent campaigns?
I’m pretty sure we have also imprisoned many people are in the same category.
Are these people’s lives worth less because they live in another country and look different to us?
If ‘having a spine’ means supporting the killing of thousands of innocent people with the eventual outcome of a less stable country where even more gets killed, then I’d prefer not to have one, ta.
I’m not suggesting that what Iran has done is acceptable, just that we’ve done a hell of a lot of less acceptable things recently in my eyes.
A massive number of people’s lives are seriously affected by the choices the UK government makes. It always saddens me that people are so surprised when British people also get caught up in the international melee. |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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| Posted: 16:08 - 04 Apr 2007 Post subject: |
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| G wrote: |
I tire of people dismissing opinions because they are ‘trendy’, as if an opinion being popular should make it void.
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There is a vast difference between a concept being popular because people have seriously thought about its concept and consequences, and trendy; where they support it because they feel it is the popular/smart/liberal thing to think.
| Quote: |
I have long being going on about Guantanamo and I do think in this case the comparison is relevant for those criticising Iran.
I’m not suggesting people shouldn’t criticise Iran, just that it would be a bit hypocritical to do so, yet to protect
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I quite understand that, I simply disagree - the circumstances are totally different.
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I am happy to show respect for those who die to protect their and our freedoms.
That is not, from what I can see, what ‘we’ have been doing recently.
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We've been protecting our interests as the government perceive them. IF we are talking about hypocrisy, most of the population seem to expect the government to provide a certain quality of life that requires a certain level of economic prosperity and international operation, then quibble over the government's attempts to secure that. I'm not suggesting they don't have the right to argue how we go about it - but go about it we must.
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A massive number of people’s lives are seriously affected by the choices the UK government makes. It always saddens me that people are so surprised when British people also get caught up in the international melee. |
No doubt. It always saddens me when people are so surprised that British people will - in such situations - count British people as more important.
I also think that it is a rather rum of you to argue (relatively compellingly) against the Iraq conflict, but then use it as mitigation for the Iranians - the very people who are causing thousands of un-necessary civilian deaths to tie up Coalition forces so that they can pursue their own ends.
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| colin1 |
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colin1
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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| G |
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G
The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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| Posted: 21:40 - 04 Apr 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: |
There is a vast difference between a concept being popular because people have seriously thought about its concept and consequences, and trendy; where they support it because they feel it is the popular/smart/liberal thing to think. |
Whether or not that's the case, it doesn't change the underlying concept and the truths of it.
| Quote: | I quite understand that, I simply disagree - the circumstances are totally different.
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While the situations are different, I personally don't believe that makes the comparisons irrelevant.
| Quote: | We've been protecting our interests as the government perceive them. IF we are talking about hypocrisy, most of the population seem ...
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And this is a bit I have an issue with - the way 'our' governments protect their interests has often been shown to cause much worse problems down the line.
| Quote: | No doubt. It always saddens me when people are so surprised that British people will - in such situations - count British people as more important. |
I think you'll find such people rarely express 'surprise' at such situations  . I appreciate that this is the way people think - I do understand that a large proportion of English people would, judging by their views, value the life of a single English person over two thousand of those living in another country.
I am not entirely un-guilty of this myself, however it doesn't stop the fact that I think it's wrong.
| Quote: | I also think that it is a rather rum of you to argue (relatively compellingly) against the Iraq conflict, but then use it as mitigation for the Iranians - the very people who are causing thousands of un-necessary civilian deaths to tie up Coalition forces so that they can pursue their own ends. |
I don't believe I 'mitigated' the Iranians per-sae. Rather I was suggesting that would I be in there position, I would feel that my top priority would be to develop a deterrent that I could be sure would prevent my country being invaded.
It was not a defence on Iran, but a criticism of the west's foreign policies. |
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
Citizen Smith
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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| Posted: 03:12 - 05 Apr 2007 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Bit out of order IMO to compare guantanamo to this situation.
Detaining scum who set IED's for us and mortar us daily is a far cry from kidnapping servicemen (which is a blatent act of war). |
Some of this is from memory so if I am wrong I apologise in advance.
IED and mortar attacks most often occur in Iraq. It is only in recent months Afghanistan has experienced this on a regular basis.
Guatanamo Bay holds prisoners from the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. Its highly unlikely anyone in Guatanamo ever set an IED or mortared a UK soldier.
If you meant Abu Gharib, the Iraq prison.....then it is highly likely that on top of criminal/insurgent prisoners the prison also contains a high amount of innocents who are probably tortured. We all have seen the pictures that came from that prison.
| Quote: | Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured. |
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml
| Quote: | No, they're mortaring us now. Every day. Because they can see progress, reconstruction and the decline of the old regime and it's terror and they want to hinder it to keep us here. Those behind insurgency, all over the middle east and afghan, ultimately want an Islam vs West all out war. And THAT is exactly what Iran want. |
Such a simpified view of the middle east completely neglects the massive scope for bloodshed that was always prevailant in Iraq since the the three big powers divided Iraq up in 1919 or the fact we split Persia into Iraq and Iran.
IMO I doubt Iran wants a all out war with the west, quite simply because if the US bit the bullet and declared all out war on Iran, it could be levelled in a very short period of time. Iran are playing power games, but they are not wanting full scale war.
| Quote: | Maybe if the liberals showed a bit of backbone, a bit of honour, a bit of respect for those WHO DIE SO THAT THEY ARE FREE TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS then I might have a bit more respect, and a bit less contempt for them. |
As unfortunate as it is, I fail to see how any one single UK death in Iraq has made my opinion any more free than before the invasion of Iraq.
As for the article.....The author brings up some interesting points, most notably how high profile our mistreatment of Islamic prisoners has been in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
However the fact he doesn't acknowledge that it is obviously propaganda really means he has took the propaganda hook, line and sinker. Not an article that should have ever made print IMO and it does little to show support to our troops.[/quote] |
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| CortezTheKill... |
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CortezTheKill...
Could Be A Chat Bot
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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| Posted: 17:05 - 08 Apr 2007 Post subject: |
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It all makes me so angry.
The 15 navy personnel were given a speech to read out between them which was pure propaganda. They even thanked British Airways for flying them home "quickly, safely and in comfort with the most legroom of any long-haul operator".
Then they all sell their stories to the press.
Jeez. Everyone wants to be a celebrity. 
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| carvell |
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carvell
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 18 years, 307 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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