First Bike a big bike?

[ironmike]

Hi all,

After a few years of nearly doing it, I have decided in my 30th year on this planet to do a 5 day DAC and get a big bike. However, I am after a bit of advice from people who have been there before. I race in triathlons and have got 6 years of experience riding around the roads on a push bike. This has I believe given me a better understanding of reading road conditions on two wheels than I otherwise would have had. This makes me no expert in motorcycles though I realise...

I know a sensible idea would be to start off on a cheap 250 or 400cc to get some bike handling skills. I have however got my heart set on something a bit special. The two bikes that I am looking at are a secondhand Ducati 749 or Yamaha R6. I realise these are big bikes with big power, but can they be beginner friendly? Is it possible for someone to drive these sensibly, or do the bikes literally make it impossible to drive at low speed? If you were to assume that I could resist the urge to throttle them, how do these bikes handle as compared to a typical beginner bike? Are they harder to drive for instance, is the turning circle greater/less, are they more twitchy? Is it simply a question that I could get myself into a mess with the power thats available, or are there other characteristics of these bikes that would make them very unsuitable for a novice?

Suggestions appreciated.

[DaveW]

I'm similar to you!! Just passed 30 and did ride a for a few years when I was 16 on a Kawasaki AR50. Then decided the bike bug had bitten again and went for my DAS. Passed 1st time after 3 lessons (Best way I think rather than an intensive 3 or so day DAS course) on the 'big' bikes (Honda Hornet 600).

I just bought myself (well a month ago) a nice R6 and love it. Done just over a 1000 miles already.

I was cacking it a bit as I remember from my DAS that the Hornet was very sensitive on throttle as this was last november and the R6 has 30bhp more power!!! Plus I had to ride it straight away from the dealers with no warm ups or practice in car park and with staff and people inside in the town centre!!!! But I was suprised at how 'friendly' it was. The throttle wasn't too sensitive and it just purred away, although I did go up the road first to turn round rather make a right turn across a main road right at some traffic lights.

After a few miles I cracked the throttle a few mm more (hardly open the throttle for normal progress) and I went only to 6,000rpm out 15,000rpm and it felt quick!!

Some say the R6 is good for newbies as it is highly tuned to produce high power which inevitably makes the low end tame so you can ride it in traffic without being jerky or popping a wheely everytime you touch the throttle!!

I found it very comfortable/easy to ride slowly or about town and manic to say the least if you let it climb above 6,000rpm with a good power 'hit' at 10,000rpm. It'll do just over 90mph in 2nd gear so you can kind of guess at what its like. Full throttle up above 10,000rpm and hit a small bump, even a cats eye and it will very slightly lift the front wheel and nod its head - but you'll love it when it does!!!

The only negative is, as its a sports bike, the turning circle is quite difficult as for 1 the bars don't turn as much as the naked etc bikes and 2 you have to position your inside hand so it 'clears' the tank. But you don't do U-turns like on the test in everyday, well I don't, I just wack my foot down for some turn arounds.

I've bought a Blue flame race can for it too.

I'd check insurance as I found the r6 cheap by £600 less than Kwak ZX6R, Honda CBR600RR so not sure what the Duke would be like. Plus the Duke are the Ferarri of bikes but not always the best on reliability - they are damn nice bikes tho.

got some nice pics of mine if you're interested!!
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Yamaha R6 '05 model, upside down forks, radial brakes, Blue flame can, dubble bubble and clear turn signals - as they say in America

[Hairy Ben]

How good is your self control dude?

Will you be able to just take things slowly and gently to begin with, not just for days, but for weeks or months until your knowledge and control of the machine starts to match your ambitions? Maybe even invest in post test training?

If people are responsible and careful then there's no reason why anyone shouldn't hop onto a larger bike as soon as they want...

Of course, with a shiny new bike and a tempting throttle grip under your hand, it's easier said than done.


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...and thus true enlightenment is achieved.

I think, therefore I am... I ride a BMW, therefore I smell of wee...

[ironmike]

Thanks for the replies guys. In one sense, maybe having a big bike will make me respect it? If I brought a 250cc then I might get into the mind set that its only a small bike and therefore I can throttle it everywhere. These bikes are capable of shifting though, so this could get my into a lot more difficulty than hoping on an R6 where I am sh*t scared and don't open the throttle up much at all.

I am impatient, but not stupid I like to think. My current car is a 320bhp impreza which can hit 60 in about 4.5 secs. I know that cars and bikes are very different beasts, but the whole going fast thing isn't something that I'm a stranger to.

So, in terms of handling the bike, it is do-able by a beginner? Its basically that I shouldn't jump on it and gun the engine for a while until I have built up my confidence? As I said, I think that I would be very scared of doing this anyway, and am likely to be more gently gently on a superbike than something smaller perhaps?

[White Noise]

[Finglonga]

My route after I passed my test was from a 125 to a 250, then a 600 then a 1100. Really wish I had gone straight to the 1100 after my test. The 250 and 600 just didn't cut it with me. As long as you can resist using all of the power all of the time, go for it. But if the throttle is going to be used as an on/off switch stay on a small bike like a 250 or 400.
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Andy Sez....
F.Y.Y.F.F.

[.....]

[DaveW]

In my opinion, your age is on your side so you should be a little more mature about it, so I would go straight to the sports 600. I have had some previous experience and even when I was 16 the bike stayed upright!!! When I passed my DAS I rode my Dad's Honda CB200 and clocked up about 1000 miles, but with that as it was old and less powerful, it came with crappier brakes etc so sometimes I was wishing for a bigger bike with the brakes to match. I know some smaller bikes have good brakes, but its self control at the end of the day and your not a 16 yr old chav showing off to his mates. I get young lads shouting pull a wheely when I ride past, err no, for one, never tried so I don't want to end up on my arse and 2 it can wreck the head sets.

At the end of the day, like your scooby, it will only go as fast as you tell it too. Plus with the supersports, you get better handling and brakes to help you utilise the power. Yes if open the throttle and hit a bend with some crappy road surface thrown in, then you'll be sat at home nursing yourself and the bike having a make over or scrapped. My first car when I was 18, everyone was driving Novas and the original scooby doos I got a 205 1.9GTi.

When I first got my R6 a month ago I thought its too fast and furious, but I have become used to it and have gently built up on corners and yes I'll give a fist full downa clear straight. I have been using it for work and on the way home there are some good bends, so I practise there, not getting my knee down, just low speed cornering getting a feel for the bike and practising counter steering which is very handy. Now I feel much more confident in bends, but not fully so I could chase a car into one. Better to come out behind the pack or car than behind the hedge!!!

I have made one mistake by braking harshly and pulling the clutch in which resulted in the back wheel locking and squirming.

If you ride it nearly everyday or weekend I'm sure you can be comfortable after a month or 2 and if you got a smaller bike will be wanting more power!! Its great when its dry, but when it rains I slow right down and more or less treat like ice on the road mainly because I havent lots of wet weather riding.

Go for the bigger bike!! When I bought mine from the dealers and said I hadn't long past my test and it was my first big bike, they said you'll love it, and I am.

No. 1 rule is stay focused and always think twice!!! On a bike think what if when cornering that bend and it will make knock a bit off the speed and you'll arrive home safe and happy and not with a close one and have to put your pants in the wash!!

PS just for a bit of safety the bigger bikes have a limited first gear so full power isn't available so you don't end up on your ass. Get into 2nd then you can let rip.

Heres some piccies of my R6
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Yamaha R6 '05 model, upside down forks, radial brakes, Blue flame can, dubble bubble and clear turn signals - as they say in America

[ironmike]

Thats a lovely bike Dave.

Thanks for the great advice guys, soaking it all up. Can I just ask though, what is counter steering? Is it when you point the wheel the opposite way to the bend, so in other words kind of like in a car when you are sliding around a tight corner?

There does seem to be a bit of a difference between these sports bikes and a beginner one in that you have to do most of your turning by leaning the bike as opposed to moving the handlebars? How easy is it to drop the bike by doing this slowly? Is it quite a common beginner mistake? That really would be a nightmare dropping a new R6 at a slow corner

[DaveW]

Thanks!!

Counter steering is when you push the 'inside' bar outwards, its wierd to explain, but its not like opposite lock in a slide in a car. The bike isn't sliding you just put weight in the inside bar which is on the inside of the corner, effectively you push to go the otherway, but not actually steering the other way, but it makes the bike tuck into the corner making it easier/tighter to get round the corner. I thinks its to do with gyroscopic intertia, the weight on the bar counter acts the steering.

I wouldn't worry about counter steering until you are used to the bike, its like trying do a Tokyo drift when you have just passed your driving test. Its not a necessary part of riding, just a skill to help you in the corners.

i'm still practising it now!! More or less got it, just need to hone it
Its all to do with your weight position too which you pick up as you get used to riding. If you have seen the professionals like in the moto GP they look like they are fixing the bike rather than riding it by jumping all over it at different positions to shift the weight. At first you will be 'stiff' but gradually you will loosen up, move about a bit more on the bike and the bends will get quicker etc.

The sports just don't have the lock to lock of the naked bikes and need a bit more room, you don't have to necessarily lean them more, well you could, but I'm not up to that quite yet. I just use clutch control and slowly get round. dab your foot down if it goes off balance. turning round, I sometimes do a 3 point turn rather than try and U-turn it, well until I'm more comfortable with it. Might practice in a carpark as you don't tend do do alot of very tight turns and if you do, they are very slow, like less than 10mph and you can dab your foot. I might look like a numpty, but not as much if I drop it.
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Yamaha R6 '05 model, upside down forks, radial brakes, Blue flame can, dubble bubble and clear turn signals - as they say in America

[DaveW]

If your thinking of a brand new R6 then these are suppose to be slight more tame at lower revs as they have squeezed more power at the top end, not loads of difference between it and the older model. I got the '05 model which is like an intermediate between the older model and newer model. It looks like the older model, but has stuff like upside down forks, radial brakes, revised inlet for a tad more power.

'05 R6 126bhp with ram air effect
'06 new shape 130bhp with ram air.

The R6 has 790bhp per ton, your scooby has 225bhp per ton - just to put it into prospective.
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Yamaha R6 '05 model, upside down forks, radial brakes, Blue flame can, dubble bubble and clear turn signals - as they say in America

[ironmike]

Thanks dave, I think I get it. The power output is very interesting too-looking at over 3 times the fun on the R6 Guess the ducati 749 is going to be pretty similar figures wise too? Think I slightly prefer the looks of the Ducati, but you do pay more for it I believe. Should be an interesting next few months-got to go get the test done first at any rate which won't be till next month now at the earliest. Might end up missing the summer fun

[DaveW]

[White Noise]

[White Noise]

[Kal]

I don't have your self control so I've just traded down from a 500 to a 250 that I can ride without too much risk to my licence.

The general wisdom is that it is easier to get basic skills in on a smaller bike, easier to get yourself out of trouble and that later on when you transfer your skills to a bigger bike you'll rie better than someone who started out on a superbike and didn't get the basics in.
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Kal...
I Like To Hoon It Hoon It I Like To Hoon It Hoon It I Like To Hoon It Hoon It Ya Like To (HOON IT!).
1984 GB250 Clubman,1983 CB250N Superdream, 1999 GPZ500S

[alig]

Hi Ironmike,

after many years of driving and sitting in the endless queues of traffic, I decided to take my cbt. Loved it. Bought a cbr 125 and got some practical experience. Within 5 months I had passed my theory and my DAS. Passed my test on the 04/05/07. Bought a brand new ZX6R 2007 on the 05/05/07 and collected it on the 12/05/07

4 weeks later and over a 1000 miles on the clock, I haven`t stopped grinning.

Years on the road count, and providing you ride within your limits, and watch out for those looney car drivers that invariably don`t see you, this will be the best move you can make.

The wrist goes both ways !!!

Happy riding.
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I lost two wheels, only to find two better wheels !!
ZX6R 2007