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Fuel Tank Additives...Pros and Cons

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web_wizard
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Fuel Tank Additives...Pros and Cons Reply with quote

Ok, Im asking this because I think its important and I'd like to know real results...For those of us who have used fuel tank additives to clean our fuel system.....Do they work? Are there any drawbacks to using them?? I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts before I try it with my bike....What about an octane booster additive...The same questions apply...is there a chance that it will be too much and end up doing damage??

thanks in advance
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do you need an octane booster for we live in Europe not Mongolia or the US where they have low octane ratings,
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Spoon261
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t mess around with fuel tank things you pour in.
Their a waste of time and money, these octane and cleaners.

Instead buy high end petrol. They have higher octane and cleaners and other things.

When I say high end petrol, I mean.

Shell V Power (99 Octane)

BP Ultimate (97 Octane)

Tesco 99 (99 Octane)

If your tesco sells the 97 petrol don’t bother.

Don’t get in to the higher the octane the better trap, its meaningless, its not the octane it’s the cleaners and other things that make the bike faster, cleaner and better pulling power thought the rev range. You can also end up with faster acceleration.

I mention the 3 petrol’s above since they are the best, the other brands high end ones are rubbish.

Shell V Power is 7p a litre more than unleaded

BP Ultimate is about the same 7p.

Tesco is around 5p more than unleaded.

Also do not be surprised to find your fuel economy improves so the high end petrol works out cheaper than unleaded per mile!

The cleaners are mild, so can take 2 whole tanks to really perform.

You can mix high end petrol with normal unleaded.

Try whichever is convenient for you

My preference is Shell V Power, I think its cleaners are better than Tesco

I have not tried BP Ultimate since its not convenient where I live, but no its reputation as being as good as Shell V power.

But independent tests, showed the tesco gives slightly better performance than the other two, I say try them all and see what suits your engine. But its convenience that’s the most important.
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Dazbo666
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a can of octane booster given to me by the previous owner when I bought my current bike, but to be honest, could never really tell any difference if I used it or not.

I think I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread (and my fuel consumption) and maybe try some of the high end fuel to see if it makes any difference Thumbs Up
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cestrian
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, the expensive BP petrol gives better power in high performance engines but is no better than standard petrol when used in a standard engine.
Fuels from SHell, BP and other big names have detergents added to them whereas the cheaper supermarket fuels don't.

I wouldn't bother with extra additives, just a waste of money.
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Spoon261
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check what octane your motorcycle needs.

Most are 95 octane or less. That means they will work on normal unleaded which is 95 octane.

Some bikes demand 97 octane. This is known in this country as super unleaded.
Do not put normal unleaded in a 97 octane engine unless you put an octane booster in.

Theirs no harm in putting to high a octane in an engine, there is real trouble if you put to low in. The performance will drop, the engine will knock and loads of other things that will damage the engine.

Octane in the UK is measured in RON (research octane). So you will see 97 RON.
I think the rest of Europe uses the RON system. America uses another system = MON? That’s more like the real octane at the pump which is lower than RON.

If your bike has been tunned, it may have been tunned for 97 octane.
If your bike is a high end sports bike type engine it also could be 97 octane.
If its anything else, its all most certainly not, unless it’s a grey import.
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ZRX61
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 31 Jul 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only fuel thats been independantly proven, so far, to do any cleaning etc is Chevron/Techron...

Any octane booster you buy is basically snake oil as you'd need at least 4x what they contain to make any difference.
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Spoon261
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PostPosted: 02:20 - 01 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZRX61 wrote:
The only fuel thats been independantly proven, so far, to do any cleaning etc is Chevron/Techron...

Any octane booster you buy is basically snake oil as you'd need at least 4x what they contain to make any difference.


https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/Fuel_Test_Results.shtml

https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/Fuel_Test_Results_Update.shtml
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 09:38 - 01 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

unless you have preignition or running high compression heads..then you dont need high octane fuel..although whats been said above is correct and you'll find quite a few people say that shell v boost etc seems to make performance markedly better.

As for fuel cleaner additives I never really thought them a suitable replacement for a proper strip down and clean..however I bought a 750 SRAD which had been standing for 3 years and once running wouldnt pull past 10,000 rpm..however with a good dose of injector cleaner it was running all the way through to the limiter in only 6 miles so I guess it has it's uses
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feef
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 01 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoon261 wrote:
ZRX61 wrote:
The only fuel thats been independantly proven, so far, to do any cleaning etc is Chevron/Techron...

Any octane booster you buy is basically snake oil as you'd need at least 4x what they contain to make any difference.


https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/Fuel_Test_Results.shtml

https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/Fuel_Test_Results_Update.shtml


For performance vehicles or tuned engines, a higher octane rating will be beneficial.

the Octane rating is a measure of how auto-ignition-resistant a fuel is. The higher the Octane rating, the more energy it requires to ignite it.

As you raise the compression ratio in performance engines, the temperature the fuel/air mixture reaches due to compression (see Charles and Boyles laws) will be higher, and so approaching the temperature for auto-ignition. For these engines, a higher octane rating will be required to prevent pre-ignition.

If your engine is NOT running a higher than average compression ratio, then the octane rating itself will have NO affect at all on performance or efficiency. It COULD be possible, if you have inadequate cooling, that the cylinder temperature is higher than normal, and you could be suffering pre-ignition due to that, however, I'd resolve the temperature issue and not mask it with a higher octane fuel.

There's more evidence that some of the cleaners within the 'v-power' or similar fuels can have some small benefits, however bear in mind it's the additives, and NOT the octane rating itself that is making these improvements.

a
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ZRX61
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 01 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoon261 wrote:

What does that have to do with anything I posted?
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web_wizard
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 02 Aug 2007    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Thank you everybody for all this information....Itchy, I do actually live in the U.S. but the information is very useful thanks everybody...
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Spoon261
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PostPosted: 02:29 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

web_wizard wrote:
Thank you everybody for all this information....Itchy, I do actually live in the U.S. but the information is very useful thanks everybody...


In the USA you even have a different type of crude oil that’s refined to make your petrol.

The UK is brent crude oil, since it comes out the north sea, a few miles off the uk cost. Many people do not no that the UK does not import any oil, we are self sufficient and will be for only a few more years (oil wells running low).

The USA has a different name since it’s a different type of crude oil. When refined in to petrol it will be a different type of petrol to brent crude petrol.

My advice still stands, since Shell sell different qualities of petrol in the USA.
I assume the other brands do as well?
We have American brands Texaco and Esso (that’s mobile / exon?).
But the American brands do not make any special petrol’s in the UK, just octane boosters.

So if you have a shell of bp gas station near you, try their most expensive petrol.
Their expertise in making special petrol must have an impact on their USA petrol.

Shell made their special petrol with the help of Ferrari in their formula one race cars.
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ZRX61
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

Spoon261 wrote:
Many people do not no that the UK does not import any oil, we are self sufficient and will be for only a few more years (oil wells running low).

Wrong:
https://www.energybulletin.net/2006.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/graphics/2007/07/05/cnoil105.gif

& the UK hasn't been "self-sufficient" for oil for decades. Because of the difference between Brent & other crudes the UK has been exporting AND importing oil all the time...

And ya also have this:
"Britain is now importing only the tiniest fraction of its oil from the Middle East, sourcing its crude instead from the Americas, Africa and Norway, according to intriguing new Government figures.
An analysis by experts at the Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (formerly the Department for Trade and Industry), reveals how dramatically the map of UK oil sources has changed over the past half-century, with almost three-quarters of UK oil coming produced from Norway.

Whereas in 1950 some 81pc of UK oil came from states in the Middle East, now only 2pc does. The experts put the dramatic fall down to the oil crisis in the late 1970s, where Middle Eastern states cut their exports to various Western states following the Arab-Israeli wars, as well as to the discovery of oil in the North Sea.

The figures undermine the widespread perception that Britain is greatly reliant on the Middle East for its oil. They reveal that if Gulf states started to embargo its oil exports, the UK would not be as directly hit, though it is still clearly vulnerable to any changes in oil and gas prices caused by events in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Providing some 71pc of UK crude oil, Norway is now a far more important trading partner, the figures show. The Scandinavian country has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of North Sea oil, and while UK supplies are expected to be depleted fast in the coming years, it has many more million tonnes of reserves."

More here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/07/05/cnoil105.xml


Last edited by ZRX61 on 16:33 - 03 Aug 2007; edited 2 times in total
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feef
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

ZRX61 wrote:
Spoon261 wrote:
Many people do not no that the UK does not import any oil, we are self sufficient and will be for only a few more years (oil wells running low).

Wrong:
https://www.energybulletin.net/2006.html

& the UK hasn't been "self-sufficient" for oil for decades. Because of the difference between Brent & other crudes the UK has been exporting AND importing oil all the time...


Indeed..

Different crudes are better at producing different distillates.. whether it's for gas, plastics, petrol, oils (of varying grades) and all sorts of other petrochemicals.

The UK as well as most other oil-producing nations, will import and export crude based on it's demand for whatever products they want to specialise it.

a
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timjim
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: fuel additives Reply with quote

Going back to your original question,i use a fuel additive in my bandit 600 in the colder weather and have done for years with no problems..i couldnt even tell you if it increase performance but it certainly helps and runs smoother.
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feef
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: Re: fuel additives Reply with quote

timjim wrote:
Going back to your original question,i use a fuel additive in my bandit 600 in the colder weather and have done for years with no problems..i couldnt even tell you if it increase performance but it certainly helps and runs smoother.


What's in the additive and how does it help combustion?

This is where every fuel additive producer fails me.

They will tell you what the stuff is claimed to do, but will never tell you HOW or what's in it.

My cynical streak suggests it's because if they DID try and tell you how and what's in it, you'd all realise it doesn't do Anything, and many of the improvements in 'smoothness' (which are subjective and cannot be qualified) are psychosomatic

a
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timjim
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 03 Aug 2007    Post subject: additives Reply with quote

i use silkolene pro fst,usually about every other tank refill,the effects you speak of being sycho sematic i would dispute as ive tried the bike with AND without the additive in the cold,when not used the bike is erratic on tickover/lumpy,when accelerating from about 3-3500 rpm,the bike hesitates and splutters.I have spoken to great lengths with other(early) bandit owners who have also experienced the problems and symptoms.The problem was supposed to have been resolved by suzuki fittting carb heaters as the fault was diagnosed to being condensation in the carb bowls when cold...mine had heaters fitted and still did the same!all i can say is that the additive is down to a personal choice,but for me using the bike ALL yaer long,rain,shine,snow and ice..the use of additive has shown positive benefits.I havent tried using the stuff in summer(what little we have!!),but can only relate my own results and opinion. Thumbs Up Karma
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Spoon261
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PostPosted: 04:17 - 04 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is going no were.

Lets make it very simple.

Try everything for yourself and see what happens.
It will depend on your engine and how you use it.

If you are worried about some companies damaging your engine, only use the companies you trust.

Just remember there are things you can buy to stick in the petrol, there are also special petrols available that already have extra things put in them. Some things will do nothing, something’s might give a slight improvement, something’s might give a big improvement etc. Something’s might make your engine last longer, some things might damage your engine (that’s were which companies do you trust comes in).
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Welsh Al
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 04 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about cleaning engines, but fuel additives can help with Carb icing if you have an older model.

I used Wynn's Dry Fuel. A pink bottle that let my GPX behave like a bike over that christmas.

I didn't try the super fuels though. They didn't have them round here at the time.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 04 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

There are fuel additives to help with carb icing. These can work, although carb icing only occurs in certain circumstances anyway.

There are also fuel additives to clean the system. Personally I am pretty dismissive of them. Certainly some can work, but it is a bit of a bodge job.

There are also octane boosters. If you need a higher octance fuel then they are required (and failing to use them, or fuel already of a sufficient octance rating, could easily result in sudden and major engine damage). If you engine does not need the higher octane fuel then it will do not good at all (indeed, might loose you a tiny amount of fuel as generally higher octance fuels have a lower energy content).

Europe uses the RON (Research Octane Number), the other major rating is given as MON (Motor Octane Number). Basically a similar test, but using a control engine at different revs. The USA uses the PON (Pump Octane Number) which is an average of the RON and MON figures for a fuel. Rule of thumb the RON figure will be 10 points higher than the MON figure, which means normal UK 95 octane unleaded is about equivalent to US 90 octane fuel.

Plenty of Japanese bikes have fairly low octane requirements (eg, 1999 to 2002 R6 is listed as needing 91 RON fuel).

All the best

Keith
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 04 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't spend the price of a round of drinks on the stuff then a wee splash of snake oil now and then could help.
Most common problem is the additives in the petrol evaporate as your bike sits in the garage.
Solution is get out on the thing more often there by increasing fuel use and helping to warm the planet (Which, I can inform you all now, will not be happening in Scotland until later.)

Or throw the old fuel away and add fresh.

But that is extreme.
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ZRX61
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PostPosted: 02:32 - 05 Aug 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
There are also fuel additives to clean the system. Personally I am pretty dismissive of them. Certainly some can work, but it is a bit of a bodge job.

The ones that DO work are already in the fuel when you pump it: Chevron's Techron & it's ilk.
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