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Cagiva SuperCity 125. What piston....?

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cagivaman
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 06 Nov 2007    Post subject: Cagiva SuperCity 125. What piston....? Reply with quote

Hi all, im looking for a new piston for my SuperCity i've found a site that sells them but there are two options: Flat top and Dome top....
does anybody know what one i need?


Cheers


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Last edited by cagivaman on 23:44 - 06 Nov 2007; edited 1 time in total
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 06 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on what type you have fitted already, if you have a flat top and fit a domed piston the compresion will be increased, theoreticaly more power but will need running on super unleaded to prevent detonation.
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cagivaman
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 06 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok...So it'l be safe with a Dome top as long as i use top notch petrol....
any ideas on the increase in power?
also can i ask what detonation is? it sounds bad....

Cheers

SMC
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 06 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

No. Use a domed piston on a head designed for a flat top and I suspect the compression would be through the roof. Very much doubt you could get it to run on anything available without suffering instant detonation.

All the best

Keith
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 00:03 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

When on my Ls in the uk i used high domed (competition) pistons in my dtr ran shite on standard unleaded, switched to super and it ran fine.

so using a standard domed piston (which will be a shallow curve) shouldn't reduce the head volume at tdc to much.

But as i said before it depends what is in there to begin with, it may well have domed pistons anyway.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

The difference between normal unleaded and super unleaded is small, but if you had upped the compression enough to need the super unleaded then the chances are that using normal unleaded would rapidly cause it to burn a hole in the piston.

While it might work, I would seriously doubt it would without a fiddling round to get the compression back down to something sensible. And would certainly be a good idea to measure the compression before you even though about starting the engine.

All the best

Keith
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 01:16 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

A two stroke motor doesn't get the maximum potential c.r. like a four stroke, Because the gasses only realy start to be compressed when the ports are covered so fitiing a domed piston doesn't increase the c.r. as much as you might think.

you may well find that the domed piston is for the mito and the flat top for the city, both using the same head and crank.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:35 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

It still makes a substantial difference. Factor in that the Cagiva already runs a high compression ratio and also (in some instances) requires 98 RON fuel as standard, even a small difference could be expensive.

Having killed pistons on an Aprilia 2 stroke using a 0.3mm base gasket on an engine set up for a 0.5mm base gasket (a small change in compression, but enough to burn a hole straight through the piston crown) I am a bit careful about this, and very dubious about saying to anyone to just give it a try.

All the best

Keith
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

0.3mm on a base gasket won't kill a two stroke. thats like saying roboring your engine will make it burn out pistons, a 0.25mm rebore will increase comp more than a 0.2mm lower cylinder.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:53 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

prawny1 wrote:
0.3mm on a base gasket won't kill a two stroke. thats like saying roboring your engine will make it burn out pistons, a 0.25mm rebore will increase comp more than a 0.2mm lower cylinder.


Except that a 0.25 rebore increase in compression could easily be compensated with a change in the shape of the piston.

And the 0.2mm difference would knock the effective compression up noticeably. On a high compression engine, (14.9:1 uncorrected, 8.3:1 effective, ignoring the effects of the exhaust and the like) already pretty needing high octane fuel it could easily cause problems

All the best

Keith
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 02:03 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

my 1989 honda 400 runs a true 11.5-1 cr from factory and that runs 95 ron fuel (recomended),
8.3-1 would be low even for a car.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 02:20 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

prawny1 wrote:
my 1989 honda 400 runs a true 11.5-1 cr from factory and that runs 95 ron fuel (recomended),
8.3-1 would be low even for a car.


Remember that is 11.5:1 uncorrected. Takes no account of when valves close, nor of the effects of the exhaust.

8.3:1 / 15:1 is very borderline on a 2 stroke, despite a 2 stroke cylinder head being far better for putting up with high compression (no need to cope with valves so a decent shape is easy). When the exhaust is working it will be pushing mixture back into the cylinder and rapidly increasing the effective compression.

It is certainly way higher than the 6.7:1 of the DTR you mentioned earlier.

While it appears low compared to a 4 stroke, by the way they work they are pretty much not comparable.

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Had a word with a guy with more knowledge of the Cagiva engines. His reply:-

Quote:

no1 has measured the compression for that kinda set up. Piston would just hit the cylinder head.

no matter which bottom gasket thickness (0,4mm, 0,5mm 0,7mm) the Dome top piston would still hit the 200H etc type heads.

secondly the 200H type etc Flat top piston heads do have wrong shape head design for dome top pistons..

for 3rd point of wiev Cylinders are also with different heights. for example 91mm and 91,6mm to 92mm heights -> they also effect how close the piston ends up..at TDC


200H refers to the type of cylinder head (there are a load of different ones, depending on engine spec). They are stamped on top so you know which ones you have.

All the best

Keith
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cagiva gezzer
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 07 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Kickstart, the piston that you should be running will depend on the cylinder type and head type.

Flats work where domes shoudl be used and give a little extra peak power and more revs, but less midrange.

Domes can't be used in place of flats.

https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/supercitybity/Cagiva/DSC04730.jpg

https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/supercitybity/Cagiva/sssssssss.jpg
You can see the cylinder number on the RH of the pic, above the circle date stamp. 73037 iirc.
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cagivaman
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 08 Nov 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok cheers for the help guys Smile




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