Speed cameras and Motorcyclists.

[BorderHooner]

Hypothetical situation;

The Police send a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution' to you as the keeper of a motorcycle, claiming that the motorcycle was photographed from behind by a roadside speed camera whilst travelling above the speed limit.

The letter asks that you incriminate yourself by filling in the form, signing it, sending your driving licence and money with the form back to them. The Police threaten you, stating that if you do not do as they say they will fine you more money and they 'intend' to take you to court resulting in a criminal record. Would you open your door to hired thugs demanding money?

What do you do? Do you do as they say and take the points and send a cheque away do you use the Law to avoid being prosecuted due to their lack of evidence?

How well you know the law decides many factors that will affect you in time to come, driving bans from totting up, insurance costs and even your employment and very means to live.

The Police are fining you, even though you have not been found guilty of a crime in a court - surely only a court can issue a fine after you have been found guilty? and they want to endorse your licence with 'penalty' points - a penalty they wish to serve upon you without a fair trial.

The question you must ask yourself is can the Police 'prove' it was you riding the bike and can they 'prove' it is indeed your bike at all.

Often the answer is no, they cannot prove this and you have rights persuant to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms
as amended by Protocol No. 11 - https://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/005.htm

So next time you think of incriminating yourself - think about your rights because it is completely certain that the Police will not tell you about them.

"Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law"

When they have the absolute definite evidence, then of course bow your head and take it on the chin, until then....... Know your rights and keep a clean licence.
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[MarkJ]

Surely they'd just prove "beyond reasonable doubt" it was you? Same leathers, bike, etc.

[BorderHooner]

The police will need to find evidence to prove that you own the motorcycle clothing and they will need to identify parts particular to your motorcycle.

How many times do the Police raid your home and garage after recieving a NIP in the post?

Often the only identifying factor is a number plate held on by two screws.

The law is not decided upon reasonable doubt, they must have proof and evidence to bring before the court.
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[Ben.]

if your the only one insured on the bike, then in can't be anyone else... unless you reported it stolen but you haven't... no?
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follow my racing season
Race bike - R6
Road bike - sv650

[BorderHooner]

Have the Police evidence that it is your bike?
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[BorderHooner]

Have the Police evidence that it is your bike?
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[Ben.]

well yes if they get you on a speed camera its kind of hard to worm your way out of it.
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follow my racing season
Race bike - R6
Road bike - sv650

[BorderHooner]

Worming your way out of something to me suggests you know you are guilty of breaking the law and are trying to concoct a story to cover it up.

Know the Law. Unless you are proven guilty you have not broken the law and are therefore not worming your way out of anything. What undeniable truth will be proven in court?

Breaking of laws must be proved. A suspicion that you have broken the law followed by threats often results in people incriminating themselves without a legal trial, without even being cautioned.

A photograph - often out of focus and often with poor colour( which I may add they are not allowed to alter with technology) of the rear of a motorcycle with a number plate, showing the rear of a person wearing clothing and a helmet.

That is not proof and I assure you it will not lead to prosecution if you know the law - it is merely suspicion and must be backed up with hard evidence.

The Police 'suspect' it was you riding, and as such they 'intend' to prosecute you. Suspicion cannot be used to incriminate you. They must prove undeniably that it was you riding.

Who has actually recieved a copy of a photograph of the rear of a motorcycle taken by a speed camera?

If you are willing you can represent yourself in court and be found not guilty, IF you know the law.
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[Fastgut]

[powelly]

wasnt the law recently changed as well so that if you dont tell/dont know who was riding you get 6 points instead fo 3?

So if you really dont know who was driving/riding you are better off to lie and just say you did it.
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Yamaha RXS 100 > Gilera Runner 50 > Suzuki SV650SY

[Ben.]

this doesn't sound right to me.

So if you say it wasn't you rideing the bike you own. The you let someone go on your bike without insurance or someone nicked it, and you didn't report it stolen...

waits for the bcf God's to explain..
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follow my racing season
Race bike - R6
Road bike - sv650

[BorderHooner]

Yes, the law was changed recently, they can 'try' and prosecute you for not identifying the rider, but they must prove that you did not use 'reasonable diligence' to identify the rider. They have no proof whatsoever. It's all wording, wishy washy and a trick, merely a con for the hired thugs to use.

Often you will incriminate yourself - this is what they rely on, they rely on you not being able to afford a bloody good lawyer or not wanting to spend on a bloody good lawyer for such a small thing of points and a few quid, they rely on you not knowing the law.

Stand up in front of a magistrate and ask him to define 'reasonable diligence'

Technicality of a definition?

Know the law and be found not guilty.
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[.....]

www.pepipoo.com

Go there and ask the same thing. People with good knowledge of how to play the system at it's own game. They won't help you lie or cheat but will help you play the system.

[D O G]

Recently got a NIP, and went on pepipoo, downloaded the PACE statement, which goes along the argument that you are providing them the info you have to in order to avoid points and a fine for not responding, but also states that as you haven't been cautioned, they cannot prosecute me.

A few days after I sent it, they sent me the points and fine. I could have fought it, but I took too long in dealing with it, so in the end I just paid the £60 and took the points.

Yeah, I definitely rolled over too easy, but there was so much other stuff going on at the time I didn't want another ball ache. Regret it a bit, as I believe I could have fought my way out of it had I the time to devote to it.

[BorderHooner]

The problem with Pepipoo is they are trusting a system, like a risk management system, they have become a community and like all communities they have bound and set themselves to think within their own parameters.

Do not rely on Pepipoo alone, Pepipoo is merely a guide and is limited.

I've a flight back to the UK to catch.

check back on Wednesday.

cheers.
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Benelli. Happy as a pig in cacky.

[.....]

[Hetzer]

Last time I was done for speeding was in Cornwall, on a trip back from a camping holiday. Except it wasn't me, it was a mate I'd lent the car to. I did the Sec 178 thing and returned the NIP with his details (name & address). They got it back from his address with 'No longer at this address' and told me if I didn't give them his new address they'd do me for failing to comply with 178. One quick phone call later, to tell them to F.U.C.K O.F.F. and I heard no more about it.

The parasitic filth want to play the money-extorting game, I'm quite happy to engage them in my go-fvck-yourself game.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Richard_Schmid]

[Tarmacsurfer]

[fazza59]

I cover over 50K miles per year for my job, points on the license are now a fact of life.

Currently down to 6 points. If like me you drive a company vehicle you don't get the NIP direct, it goes via the lease company to your head office and they fill it in for you, the loop hole here is the police are allowed more time, not just the standard 14 days!!!

All I can say is if you have 9 points and facing a ban, try to fight it, you will probably end up with a ban come what may.

If however you have no pints, take the fine and points and learn to slow down for cameras.

Whenever I go into a 30 or 40 zone I stick to the limit, rarely do they have cameras in zones other than these.

And trying the human rights thing, no don't think it works for the average UK citizen!
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Current - Yamaha R1 - Yamaha XJ600N - Kawasaki GPZ 500S (project? Maybe )
Pics of my bikes

[dabigginger]

Is it not the responsibility of the car/bike owner to know who was using it on a certain date/time. Probably not practical if more than one person regularly use one vehicle. i.e. Wife and husband sharing a car, but I always thought that is the way it was.

However, I certainly know the law, so wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

[Finglonga]

[Stu_666]

So (to the original poster) you think people should be allowed to speed then? I've got no problems with it in the right place just that some people kinda take the piss and then I've got no problems with them being fined/banned.

If a speeding fine came through my door and I definately knew it wasn't me then I'd contest it (i.e if the offence happened somewhere I've never been for example).

[Jaloopa]

There's an urban legend I've heard of that if you overpay a speeding fine by cheque (i.e. send a cheque for £61) then you get a cheque back for the extra amount, and if you don't cash it you don't get the points. Can anyone confirm or refute this?
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mattsprattuk wrote: but at least the lifan could do like 104mph in 3rd gear

[Richard_Schmid]

I read a story once, where an elderly man was apparently cauht speeding down the motorway at speeds of approx 100mph with photographic evidence. He challenged the claim, and it was proven that his 1.0L mini metro was incapable of doing over 85mph!