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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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 Posted: 08:41 - 01 Feb 2008  Post subject: |
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well you could have deleted it yerself if you hadn't replied to it,
what do you mean Tory policies? ,
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 10:54 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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They're talking about allowing this so-called 'topping up' to take place.
It was late, and I'd had a long and frustrating day 
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>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
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| Annabella |
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Annabella
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Posted: 11:12 - 01 Feb 2008  Post subject: |
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I have to stand up and defend the DoH and NHS on this one.
The drug has not yet been approved by NICE which means that it hasn't been proven to be effective, nor have the side effects been investigated thoroughly - hence the comment from the DoH.
If the patient decides to be treated using an unproven branded drug that consultants and NHS staff have very little knowledge or training to use then why should they be held responsible for any nasty side-effects - or even if the treatment doesn't work at all?
And why should the DoH encourage someone to sell their house to fund a drug that they don't approve and aren't even sure works??
What does disgust me is the oncologist recommending a drug that he knew full well wasn't available. Unfortunately, drug companies have lots of money and are able to provide consultants with wonderful complimentary holidays... oops sorry, research trips free of charge.
As for the pricing of the drug - do you really think it costs that much to produce it? The drug companies register a drug and then have a number of years where they are the only company registered to produce and sell that particular drug, meaning they can charge whatever they like for it. Once this period is over other companies can release the same drug and sell them as generic drugs for a fraction of the original price. Unfortunately, a lot of doctors and patients refuse to move over to these new generic drugs and continue paying sometimes more than 10 times the cost for a branded drug.
Ok, time for a cup of tea and a chance to breath.
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 11:25 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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| Annabella wrote: | I have to stand up and defend the DoH and NHS on this one.
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I rather thought you might!
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If the patient decides to be treated using an unproven branded drug that consultants and NHS staff have very little knowledge or training to use then why should they be held responsible for any nasty side-effects - or even if the treatment doesn't work at all?
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That could surely be handled in other ways than effectively withdrawing all 'free' care - I say 'free', because of course the NHS is already paid for by our taxes.
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And why should the DoH encourage someone to sell their house to fund a drug that they don't approve and aren't even sure works??
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They certainly shouldn't be encouraging it - that isn't the same as effectively banning it.
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What does disgust me is the oncologist recommending a drug that he knew full well wasn't available.
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Perhaps he genuinely believes it has the best chance of success?
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As for the pricing of the drug - do you really think it costs that much to produce it?
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Of course not, although again - ultimately it is the government's responsibility to regulate the industry, and protect the public from such sharp practice.
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| Annabella |
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Annabella
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| Walloper |
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Walloper
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| Posted: 12:04 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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So the lesson is:
For a healthy life.
Eat better.
Do not smoke.
Do not drink.
Avoid Stress.
Childbirth.
Sex.
And do not ride a motorcycle.
Is this an 'unfortunate one off' headline making case?
There are also loads of folk out there who have treatable health issues which NHS is not able/willing to address.
The NHS (No Hope of Salvation) is dying of inoperable cancer, we should all know that.
Who gives a fuck?
"Not me I have BUPA....."  
But we should not only rely on our National Health Service as our safety net. We all should get smarter and take MORE responsibility for our own well being. (And encourage friends and family to do so.)
Just a suggestion.... 
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 12:33 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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| Annabella wrote: |
Yes.. I agree. However the largest industry in the UK is the drug industry. Our government are over a barrel on this one somewhat - prevent overpricing and have the industry withdrawn from the country? It's never going to happen.
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All the more reason for the government to find other ways to compensate us - the taxpaying durg-buying public - for their inability to protect us from price-gouging!
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As for withdrawing free treatment - how can clinicians differentiate between side-effects or illnesses caused by the unproven drugs and those that aren't?
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As I understand it, the drug has been licensed (meaning that it is believed to be relatively safe, as far as can be tested?) and any dispute over whether it should be made available is due to cost, not effectiveness?
Even if that isn't the case with this particular drug, with 'post-code lotteries' and much publicised cases like this one - how can the public have confidence that the NHS genuinely has clinical concerns, or just wants to save a bit of dosh?
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The point is, if this drug was proven to be effective it would be available on the NHS. It hasn't been proven as such and so isn't available. I agree, if someone wants to waste their own money they should be allowed to, but not when there is little or no knowledge of a drug and it's side-effects and NHS clinicians are expected to deal with these. |
If this lady arrange private treatment, was discharged but then suffered a reaction or side-effect and was taken seriously ill, would not the NHS have to treat her?
I appreciate your point, I just don't know if I'm comfortable with the NHS stomping its collective foot down on this one particular vector, while we all cry "nanny state" when government bodies posit ideas such as withdrawing care for those who abuse alcohol and food.
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 12:38 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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I care cus I can't afford private,
but that said the NHS budget it 80bn right? , if 8bn =2% income tax , changing to private ought to mean zero rate of income tax up to 40K, since i'd only save oh 2-3K and I don't think this will buy bupa treatment
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| repiV |
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repiV
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 12:57 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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But then NICE is odd anyway, like Invitro yes we shall fund this, not having children won't kill you (infact it seems that it is the inverse) , and this costs ££££££££££££££.
Where is the life saving aspect of this? ,
EDIT
the problem with the NHS is that is also is a gigantic pyramid scheme much like pensions, the base of the pyramid is reaching jupiter sized proportions.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Ichy |
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Ichy
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Annabella |
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Annabella
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| Posted: 15:48 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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I'm sure the cost effectiveness is more important than just the cost.
You've got to wonder with this list of side effects whether the extended life it promises to offer would actually be worth living?
The "Lives for pennies" arguments always pop up but someone has to make a decision about where money should be spent. So chose:
An immensely expensive, unproven drug that has a list of side effects resulting in fatality as long as your arm for one woman to spend the remaining months of her life with skin sores, vomiting and with no appetite
OR
At least 8 masectomies and subsequent chemotherapy to allow eight women to be completely free of breast cancer for the rest of their lives
It breaks my heart to read articles like this and I could never be in the position to make that sort of decision, but I can see the logic that has to be used...
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| repiV |
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repiV
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| Posted: 16:14 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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| Annabella wrote: | I'm sure the cost effectiveness is more important than just the cost.
You've got to wonder with this list of side effects whether the extended life it promises to offer would actually be worth living?
The "Lives for pennies" arguments always pop up but someone has to make a decision about where money should be spent. So chose:
An immensely expensive, unproven drug that has a list of side effects resulting in fatality as long as your arm for one woman to spend the remaining months of her life with skin sores, vomiting and with no appetite
OR
At least 8 masectomies and subsequent chemotherapy to allow eight women to be completely free of breast cancer for the rest of their lives
It breaks my heart to read articles like this and I could never be in the position to make that sort of decision, but I can see the logic that has to be used... |
It's hardly relevant to draw such a comparison since that kind of either/or decision would never happen in the real world.
It is in fact outrageous that cancer patients get such a raw deal in this country when you can get breast reduction surgery and IVF on the NHS, and when so much public money is just frittered away.
Even worse is the subject of the article - that is, punishing patients for choosing to fund their own treatment when necessary. Sounds rather like playacting communists to me.
Ultimately it all comes down to one thing - that the health service and the country is managed by people who know fuck all about management, and have no real business experience. If substantial corporate experience was a prerequisite for entering politics, our leadership might actually possess some kind of sanity. |
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Walloper
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| Shay HTFC |
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Shay HTFC
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| repiV |
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repiV
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| Posted: 16:54 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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| Walloper wrote: |
Spin time...
Corporate management such as:
Northern Rock
Société Générale
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Put it this way, I'd rather have Richard Branson or Alan Sugar running the country than any slimey bastard of a politician.
Nothing qualifies a politician to run anything except the votes they receive - sounds fair and just in theory, but the reality it creates is self-evident: politicians are by far the least competent of all professions, to everyone's detriment.
Most modern politicians have lived their entire working lives in the vacuum of politics, they have little conception of the realities of life for anyone outside of politics.
In the corporate world, people choose a line of work and, throughout their time, become more and more important in that line of work. When they get to Directorship level, still they will have special responsibility over the areas they are experienced in.
In government, smiley fucking Tony just decides that the fat little scrote from Hull should be responsible for the country's finances. |
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| Annabella |
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Annabella
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| Walloper |
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Walloper
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| Posted: 17:43 - 01 Feb 2008 Post subject: |
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| repiV wrote: | | Walloper wrote: |
Spin time...
Corporate management such as:
Northern Rock
Société Générale
|
Put it this way, I'd rather have Richard Branson or Alan Sugar running the country than any slimey bastard of a politician.
Nothing qualifies a politician to run anything except the votes they receive - sounds fair and just in theory, but the reality it creates is self-evident: politicians are by far the least competent of all professions, to everyone's detriment.
Most modern politicians have lived their entire working lives in the vacuum of politics, they have little conception of the realities of life for anyone outside of politics.
In the corporate world, people choose a line of work and, throughout their time, become more and more important in that line of work. When they get to Directorship level, still they will have special responsibility over the areas they are experienced in.
In government, smiley fucking Tony just decides that the fat little scrote from Hull should be responsible for the country's finances. |
Oh you mean a Dictatorship....?
My way or the hi-way?
Your jacket is not nailed to the wall. If you do not like things the way I do it then leave? That kind of 'leader' ship.
Politicians rely on Experts to provide information to make their judgements based on sound political belief.
The experts are taken from a broad cross section of society and industry is involved.
I do not think the Hi-heid-yins of corporate world choose to live here, UK, just because they get their Sunday Times on print day.
Most of them like the place.
There are loads of things wrong with government/s the way it is but if you have away to please everyone then let us know.
Like Annabella said the NHS makes it's cruel business decisions everyday.
I do not think the decisions can always be made on compassionate/emotional grounds or we would be bankrupt by lunchtime tomorrow.
Some hard Cnut has to make a decision.
Someone else may have to tell a person no.
It is easy to kick the NHS, but no-one or not very many want to fight for it.
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Mister James
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Itchy
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Annabella
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Walloper
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 18 years, 4 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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