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Palestine or Israel?

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Who should claim the region?
Jews (Israel)
28%
 28%  [ 10 ]
Muslims (Palestine)
25%
 25%  [ 9 ]
Who ever was there first
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Don't care
25%
 25%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 35

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Phil.
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Palestine or Israel? Reply with quote

Read that a whole bunch of kids were killed yesterday in gaza from an israeli assault. Just one of many stories like it i expect.

But it got me thinking, which (if any) side would you offer your support to? I only ask because the British government has played a pretty active role in the creation of the state of Israel and seems to continually supports the ongoing Zionism.

I am yet to find a good explanation for why the jews needed a home land, Aftermath of the holocaust maybe? Or Christianity trying to fulfill the prophecy?
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 14:15 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Neither side. Compromise is required on both parts.

All the best

Keith
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither side , in the old xian path of thought, an eye for an eye makes the world go blind.

And our role isn't THAT big IIRC we just didn't vote and abstained on the UN policy for the creation of the state.

We did however sell them tons of weapons ie if we didn't sell them our cheiftan tanks which were highly superior to that of the soviet Tanks of the time, they may have been squashed.

However if we didn't sell stuff to them others will have , where there is money there is business.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Neither side. Compromise is required on both parts.

All the best

Keith



????

So we wait another 1500+ years for compromise?

No..

We vapourise The Palestine.
Give them 25 years to move then:
What's that noise an above ground 'A' bomb detonation makes again....?
Lets ask Japan. It sorted out the silly buggers there for sure. And we will get over it in 500 years.
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TheDonUK
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted for the Palestinians, mostly because they are the underdog.

I am not religous in the slightest, and reject the Zionist claims that because something was perhaps written 2000 years ago they now have any claim to anything.

If i write that TheDon and everyone of his race/family owns london and then bury it, does it become true in 2000 years? if so im going to get writing...

It was the state of Palestine, then the british were granted a League of Nations mandate to govern, they royally botched that up and allowed zionists a foothold and now we have what we have today...

That being said, Israel is obveously not going to disappear, a two state solution is really the only option, the problem is there is so much hate, on the palestinian side due to American-Funded, Israeli killings, settlements and bolldozings, and on the Israeli side because of Suicide bomber/Rocket fears...

I cant see them settling it themselves, a third party needs to devide it up into two acceptable states,

Palestinians need to accept that Israel does and will exist and not be so stubborn,

The Israeli's need to immediately stop building settlements, withdraw many of the current ones (too bad for the folks that settled, they should have realised it wasent going to be the most secure place...) and stop the constant attacks that mostly hurt civilians.

The suicide bombings and "terror" are the desparate attempt of a smashed up people to fight back against an agressor that is funded by America, what else can they do? I dont think Hamas has many tanks/fast-jets or helecopter gunships...

And i know i wouldent just lie down and take it if a group of people came to my country and started expanding with foreign aid...

If i were a palestinian i would be out there with an AK chanting Allah Akbar....

Whereas if i were a Jew i would see many options available to me other than moving to Israel
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D O G
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

The state of Israel disgusts me. As far as I can tell it was created for the Jewish 'nation' after WW2 as a kneejerk reaction to the atrocities of the holocaust. Effectively kicking the Palestians from their country.

That is so wrong IMO. Do Christians or Buddhists or any other religion have their own country? I don't think so.

It should never have been created, simply stripping the people of Palestine of their land.

The area has been controlled by many different civilisations over history, but it was not right to create a country like the UN did. If you applied the same logic to the USA (a strong supporter of Israel), then they should hand their country back to the native Americans, similarly with Australia, South Africa, and so on.

The fact that there is a strong Jewish community, with a disproportionately high number of very rich and influential individuals, and their use of the holocaust as leverage has led to the creation of Israel, and the current fucked up situation.

The continuing support and financing of Israel by the Yanks doesn't help matters.

I support the Palestines, they should fight to get their land back. If the Jews want to fight back, then let them, but I know who I'll be shouting for.
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NSR Mick
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damofo D.O.G. wrote:
The state of Israel disgusts me. As far as I can tell it was created for the Jewish 'nation' after WW2 as a kneejerk reaction to the atrocities of the holocaust. Effectively kicking the Palestians from their country.



It was declared as Israel way before then, it was just taken back off the palestinians and given back to the Jews. Thumbs Up
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:04 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheDonUK wrote:
I am not religous in the slightest, and reject the Zionist claims that because something was perhaps written 2000 years ago they now have any claim to anything.

If i write that TheDon and everyone of his race/family owns london and then bury it, does it become true in 2000 years? if so im going to get writing...


ah thats whats called bus/train seat rules , if you stand up your seat is fair game to anybody who dives into your seat.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damofo D.O.G. wrote:
That is so wrong IMO. Do Christians or Buddhists or any other religion have their own country? I don't think so.


the buddists used to to some extent ie Tibet , then China wanted a piece of it, and claimed it as their own.
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TheDonUK
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

gsxrmick wrote:
It was declared as Israel way before then, it was just taken back off the palestinians and given back to the Jews. Thumbs Up


As far as i can recall the state of Israel was declared 1947/48 after the end of the British mandate, Any claims before then are religious and so far as im concerned invalid....

Itchy wrote:
the buddists used to to some extent ie Tibet , then China wanted a piece of it, and claimed it as their own.

Not really man, Tibet is a state wherein the majority happens to be Bhuddist, Israel was created as a "Jewish Homeland" in accordance with Zionism...
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Dom
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only person who finds the idea of gifting a religion their own country more than a little strange. However there clearly isn't any going back now.

I completely agree with Keith that compromise is the only way any solution can now be found. Something that neither side seem to be particularly interested in.
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Phil.
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 03 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish i could believe a compromise would be found, but the very fact that giving Palestinian land to Israel was done by the UN and the massive support Israel gets from the world biggest war mongers i just can't see it over untill Palestine is no more.
https://www.funhostr.com/files/f/files/nab7FZkc.jpg

I believe it was this documentary i watched not so long ago which explains how our country helped and continues to engineer this Zionism;
https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bo992BOHBU

Makes me want to leave this place when i think about what kind of things my taxes help pay for...
Sad
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

learn to get along or......

https://nukeitfromorbit.com/nuke.jpg
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA_temporary wrote:
learn to get along or......

https://nukeitfromorbit.com/nuke.jpg



I love the smell of hydrogen in the morning... Thumbs Up
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is less black-and-white than some here (and many elsewhere) would claim.

The Palestinians are not the blameless innocents that many would have them - but neither are they (as a group) the vicious terrorist murderers that others claim. Most of them are simply trying to get by in a poverty-stricken and hostile corner of the globe.

The Israelis are not all murderous religious fanatics bent on exterminating the Arabs within their borders - neither are they the plucky underdogs that some Western observers seem to see.

The 'Arab Street' has a lot more to answer for than many realise - it is Muslim Arab nations whose telegraphed attack on the nascent state of Israel caused the Palestinian Arabs to flee (in gleeful anticipation of the Jews being thrown into the sea) - and the Arab defeat that led to the refugee situation we see today.

It is telling that - for all their sympathy and crocodile tears - the Arab nations are not doing a huge amount to help those in Gaza or in the West Bank; cynics like me would posit that it is of more use to them to have nice external problem to point to, to focus their populations anger on the yukky Jews and not domestic issues.

It has been interesting looking back at my education, and seeing the different ways the Arab-Israeli conflict has been taught. At secondary school I learnt all about the plucky IDF throwing back the evil Arab invaders, while at A level I learnt all about the poor Palestinians being abused by the Israeli overlords. At university, I was told about how the whole bloody mess was also my direct responsibility as a citizen of the capitalist pigdog Western Imperium, etc etc etc.

The simple fact remains that none of us have a perfectly clear understanding of what is happening over there - probably the only thing that I can be sure of is that killing women and children on both sides over a near-worthless piece of land is not what I consider to be a just war.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 17:01 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

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colin1
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) were there first.

Israelis started strong arming their way in, buying land, stealing land etc.

As everyone felt sorry for the jews after WWII Israel was created to given them a home, but of course it was someone elses home already.

Obviously Arabs were pretty pissed off about this, and thought they could band together and help their palestinian brothers get their country back.

However Israel gets loads of money from America and is tooled up to the max with the latest Militairy hardware including Nuclear Weapons.

Israel fights off the arabs, and then takes extra territory and takes a huge chunk of extra land. Partly so its easier to defend itself, and partly cos they need more land.

Obviously Arabs are then even more pissed off as not only does Israel have all the land that it was given, its taken some more.

If this country was invaded and we fought back, would we think of ourselves as resistance fighters or terrorists ?

The palestinians are no more terrorists than the French resistance were terrorists for fighting the nazi occupation of France.

However in real life, the world isnt fair, so Palestinians wont get their country back.

When they were allowed to hold elections, they voted in the wrong party, and so had all sorts of trade sanctions imposed on them.

Its not democracy, if you there is hell to pay if you vote for the party you want.

The best that can be hoped for is a ceasefire, or lessening of hostilities.

The other thing is, that even the Israeli government isnt in control of its own citizens who just take land illegally from palestinians and declare it their land and build stuff on it. These are called outposts, while legal ones are called settlements.

Palestinians havnt got a chance of winning but you cant really blame them for wanting to fight the people who take their land and kill them.

Palestinians have low tech weapons so they dont kill many people. Israelis have the best kit available. They have also forgotten the old law of proportionality of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. So they massively over react and kill far more than they have lost themselves.

The best hope is for Palestinians to admit they cant win and have to compromise on israeli terms and forget about getting their land back. In the same way that Sinn Fein and the IRA eventually put down their arms for power sharing which means top jobs for the main guys, but no real changes other than less violence.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walloper wrote:
CaNsA_temporary wrote:
learn to get along or......

https://nukeitfromorbit.com/nuke.jpg



I love the smell of hydrogen in the morning... Thumbs Up


Fukin awesome pic, dont ya think? Twisted Evil
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Nufkamp
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 04 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had that as wallpaper on my PC for a few months now.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 03:24 - 05 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had four of them with bacon and eggthis morning for breakfast.
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.Chris.
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PostPosted: 00:48 - 06 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been doing a couple of modules for my degree on Israel/Palestine and Middle East politics and it's fascinating.

Sadly there is going to be a big difference in what's actually just and what will probably happen in the end.

If justice is done then Israel will cease to exist and the Palestinians will go back to their rightful homes. What will actually happen will probably be that the Palestinians will be confined to some tiny bantustan on less than a quarter of their original lands and will recieve a paltry amount of compensation (paid for mostly by the US, not Israel).


Quote:
The 'Arab Street' has a lot more to answer for than many realise - it is Muslim Arab nations whose telegraphed attack on the nascent state of Israel caused the Palestinian Arabs to flee (in gleeful anticipation of the Jews being thrown into the sea) - and the Arab defeat that led to the refugee situation we see today.


That's what the Israeli establishment would like you to believe. I agree no side is blameless but I reckon there's fairly good evidence to suggest that most of the Palestinians left out of fear or were forced out. Plenty of Israeli historians agree.

I reckon the refugee issue needs more discussion than it currently gets as without some sort of resolution of the issue there will be no peace. Problem is, it's not a question of land but one of race. The Israelis don't want any more Arabs in Israel than they have at the moment (due to them wanting a 'jewish state'). That pretty much rules out any sort of compromise on the Israeli side. Thing is the Israelis are not keen for this to be discussed as it shows Israel for what it really is - a racist state.
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tatters
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PostPosted: 01:57 - 06 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

colin1 wrote:
The Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) were there first.


No they weren't

The first know civilization was the Chalcolithics (first city states 4300 BCE) then later on the Philistines who came from greece and settled in what is now the gaza strip they were slowly absorbed/destroyed by the Israelites along with the Canaanite plus other smaller tribes who took over the area as there so called promised land, later on the greeks and romans who control the area and suppress jewish control until the rise of islam were the expulsion of the majority of christians and jews from middle east took place.


if you were to put it in who owned what for how long based upon civilizations.


Chalcolithics: 4300–3300 BC

Canaanite/Philistines: 3300–1200 BC

Jews 1200-586 BC

Neo-Babylonians 586–539 BC

Persians 539-333 BC

Greeks 333–165 BC

Jews 330-63 BC

Romans (Christan from 312 AD) 63 BC–638 AD

Arabs (muslims) 638-1099 AD

Europeans/Romans (Christans) 1099–1244 AD

Mamluks (muslims) 1244–1517 AD

Ottomans (muslims) 1517-1917 AD

British 1917–1948 AD

State of Israel 1948-present
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 06 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

RXS100_Chris wrote:

If justice is done then Israel will cease to exist and the Palestinians will go back to their rightful homes. What will actually happen will probably be that the Palestinians will be confined to some tiny bantustan on less than a quarter of their original lands and will recieve a paltry amount of compensation (paid for mostly by the US, not Israel).


Regardless of the 'couple of modules' you have done, it's obvious that you've already formed an opinion on the subject - and allow that to colour your comments.

Using loaded words like 'paltry' and suggesting the destruction or dissolution of a nation as a reasonable solution are both tactics that completely undermine any claim you might have to be approaching this objectively.

Quote:

That's what the Israeli establishment would like you to believe.


And what you seem to believe is what the liberal, left-leaning British academic establishment would like you to think.

Quote:

I agree no side is blameless but I reckon there's fairly good evidence to suggest that most of the Palestinians left out of fear or were forced out. Plenty of Israeli historians agree.


I fail to see how you can possibly quote Israeli historians as a reliable source when the rest of your argument centres around the total moral bankruptcy of their people and nation!

Quote:

Problem is, it's not a question of land but one of race.


You're probably right there.

Quote:

The Israelis don't want any more Arabs in Israel than they have at the moment (due to them wanting a 'jewish state'). That pretty much rules out any sort of compromise on the Israeli side. Thing is the Israelis are not keen for this to be discussed as it shows Israel for what it really is - a racist state.


You're definitely wrong there - as once again, your bias shines through.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:17 - 06 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister James wrote:

You're definitely wrong there - as once again, your bias shines through.


Aside from nuking the place from orbit (and thus having people fight over holy glass) ,

the solution is less segregation and more integration , ie instead of settlements of one type of person, everybody mixes with each other,

much as in 1984 , the state propaganda purposely kept people from different nations from meeting each other, as they would find out they are pretty much like each other and stop fighting.

While segregated there is no counter point to the propaganda which each side spouts over and over.

Though this isn't guarenteed to work ... check out London which is supposed to be mixed but has effectively self segregated,
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mattsprattuk
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 06 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont care...

im never going to go there.
they should fight their own battles.
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