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| JonB |
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JonB
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 Posted: 22:07 - 09 Mar 2008  Post subject: Liberal Democrats call for "Proportional Representation |
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https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7285814.stm
This is what the country desperately needs. It is a fairer and rather more truer form of democracy, our present system of first past the post makes a mockery of this as 60% of the voting population usually aren't represented. This stops people like Gordon Brown pushing through anti-terror laws at will.
Whether it will ever happen or not is debatable, but it's good sounds right now. To be honest i've always been a bit yellow, but their policies suit me as an individual moreso than any other party right now. 
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 22:14 - 09 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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Tony Blair was an ardent fan of PR before he was elected , guess what happened?.
and FWIW , Lib dems can say and do anything they want they'll never get elected and thus don't have to put any substance to their policies.
I've said it many times and I said it again, in open court in a case recently Gordon said that manifesto pledges and promises are NOT subject to legitimate expectation.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| cestrian |
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cestrian
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| bazza |
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bazza
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| iooi |
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iooi
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| Posted: 11:13 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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While it maybe a fairer system.
All it leads to is a lot more elections.
Lets face it internally parties can't agree, so what hope is there of different parties agreeing....
You also end up then with a lot of watered down policies that are worse than the full policy, just so it can be got through the system.
If they are going the PR route then we also need to look at making voting compulsory for everyone over 18. Even if its just means adding a box saying "I don't care"
Democracy is the right of the minority to rule the majority. 
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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iooi
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 12:43 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| iooi wrote: |
But if everyone who thought like you voted for the party that wanted to bring PR in, then it might happen, as it is now it never will.
Only by you getting of your soapbox and doing something will it ever change.
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Read again my post above,
Tony Blair promised to bring in PR if he won the 1997 election, he won , PR was NOT instated.
Funny enough he also said no more tax increases NI went up 1% (which is a 10% tax hike) , he also said no topup fees.
And as said I ardently campaigned against ID cards , printed things at my own cost , wrote many letters , what happened? , nothing... because the corporate bribes are more important than the desires of voters.
The only way to change things is to put them against the wall each and everytime a lie is told each and everytime a promise is reneged upon.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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cestrian
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| yambabe |
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yambabe
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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| cestrian |
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cestrian
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| Posted: 14:44 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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Babyyam, with respect, if you hadn't noticed we have a system whereby one party is elected to power in a first past the post voting system. That party is then controlled by the party whip, in other words, when Broon says jump, the whips tells every member of the party when to jump and in which direction to jump. So it's almost impossible to beat the governing party when it comes to a parliamentary vote.
| Quote: | Each person represents their single constituency (which are actually smaller than counties in general) do they not? |
Now here is the big problem. You are not being represented by your MP. If you believe you are represented by your MP, tell us how he/she has represented your views in parliament. Tell us when he actually sought your views before he voted on your behalf.
| Quote: | The procedure for standing for election is about as democratic as you can get, and I can't see how what you are proposing would differ from the present system. |
That doesn't make any sense but I think I know what you're trying to say. OK so you've jumped ahead a little. The system I propose is a simple one. There should be no political parties and therefor no whips. Every MP is allowed to vote according to the thoughts and feelings of their constituents. If the representative screws up, then he/she gets replaced. As for democracy, you may have read earlier that democracy is akin to mob rule. In your democratic system, a majority of just 51% will secure the vote, but the other 49% of the people will not be represented. That aint democratic.
| Quote: | Your "commoners" would be the equivalent of the current independents in Parliament surely, and while they are in the minority they are still there at the moment |
Imagine a whole government made up of independents, each one representing the real views of their constituents. No party whips to sway the vote.
ETA At present, MP's are serving themselves and the subversive few who are destroying our country and society, that are definitely NOT serving any of us. If you believe otherwise, wait until Wednesday to guage how they are serving the British people as a whole. |
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| iooi |
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iooi
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| Posted: 15:44 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| Hetzer wrote: | Exactly. Instead of corrupt individuals who main concern is themselves first and secondly the hand that feeds them (their party).
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I think many start off with the idea of serving the people who put them in their position, but that soon wains when the whip says YOU WILL vote this way, or lose the support of the party...
Lets face it, as you say its human nature, and the best they can hope for is 5 years in the job before they get kicked out.
Who wants to employ a ex backbencher who didn't do as he was told....
Not many directorships to be had with that attitude. 
Only true Independents like the ex news guy in the white suit actually have the guts to stand up and be counted, but how a country could be run with 600 people like him, i have no idea.
I guess it would be worse than the farce now, as if everyone has their own agenda nothing would ever get done.
I did once think of starting out on the path as a local councillor and went to a couple of their meetings.... Soon binned that idea when you realise just how much time is taken up, the bullshit you have to stand from all quarters, sure there is some ££ in recompense, but not enough to cover the loss of your free time. Only way to really do it is if you ain't got a proper job to do.
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cestrian
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 17:11 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| Hetzer wrote: | The few in power consider only their own happiness as important. They regard everyone else (us) as a means towards furthering that interest, even when it means that we are unhappy doing it.
Human civilisation has to be re-built from the ground up, on a firm philosophical basis that ensures the primacy of the greatest happiness for the greatest possible number of people, instead of the current practice of the greatest good for the fewest at the expense of the many.
The book is in my head, the motivation to write it is lacking. The older I get the less I give a shit. |
No an assassination market is what is needed, ie everybody effectively has a price on their head, and thus when somebody does something unpopular say invade Iraq, people get to spend their £10 of assassination market funds.
you putting £10 on me and me putting £10 on you is inconsequentual since £10 isn't much money where it becomes useful though is in large numbers.
Thus people press the red button on their remote control, with 1.5 million people protesting converted into assassin's pot the pot would have been 15 million pounds. Which would have attracted many many assassins.
Ditto increasing fuel tax , with 30 million drivers lets say 75% of them don't want an increase in tax, the assassin's pot would be £22.5 million.
This makes them make good decisions out of self preservation not out of greed.
Each citizen is given £10 a week to spend on the market.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 17:29 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| Itchy wrote: | | Hetzer wrote: | The few in power consider only their own happiness as important. They regard everyone else (us) as a means towards furthering that interest, even when it means that we are unhappy doing it.
Human civilisation has to be re-built from the ground up, on a firm philosophical basis that ensures the primacy of the greatest happiness for the greatest possible number of people, instead of the current practice of the greatest good for the fewest at the expense of the many.
The book is in my head, the motivation to write it is lacking. The older I get the less I give a shit. |
No an assassination market is what is needed, ie everybody effectively has a price on their head, and thus when somebody does something unpopular say invade Iraq, people get to spend their £10 of assassination market funds.
you putting £10 on me and me putting £10 on you is inconsequentual since £10 isn't much money where it becomes useful though is in large numbers.
Thus people press the red button on their remote control, with 1.5 million people protesting converted into assassin's pot the pot would have been 15 million pounds. Which would have attracted many many assassins.
Ditto increasing fuel tax , with 30 million drivers lets say 75% of them don't want an increase in tax, the assassin's pot would be £22.5 million.
This makes them make good decisions out of self preservation not out of greed.
Each citizen is given £10 a week to spend on the market. |
What happens when a politician doesn't cut taxes by 25%, even though proof exists that it's simply not workable in the short-term? Loads of monkies having him assassinated coz they're too thick to understand economical science?
Part of the reason politicians hold the common man in contempt (and abuse him) is because the common man isn't the sharpest chisel in the tool-box.
What politicians don't grasp is that contempt for a natural condition is no excuse or reason for taking advantage and using the common man like a serf. Basic principle of civilised humanity: the strong protect the weak.
What you can't do is grant the weak the power to exterminate the strong with unjust cause.
Present govt excluded of course; there are almost no politicians who aren't slime-sucking curs deserving of the sharp side of a shovel through the base of the skull.
Politicians represent human nature at it's very worst. Every vile and low characteristic is exemplified by them and their kind...and they lead us. Sheer insanity, on the face of it. But so long as nobody of intellect and the very best of human nature steps up to the plate the rot will continue. Because no average cretin can make a difference, and nor will one ever try (and if he did he'd fail immediately).
And when you look at the work of some of the greatest philosophers, and how much incredible influence their dreck has wielded, one begins to get an idea of the enormity of the problem facing our species.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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| iooi |
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iooi
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| Posted: 19:12 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: |
Unstable government means one that cannot trample over the majorities wishes.
At least with PR the only laws that will pass are the ones that have almost universal support. If they don't have that level of support then I would suggest that they should't be passed anyway.
Should cut down on the number of knee jerk laws passed with the wishes of one small minority against another small minority with the majority not caring.
All the best
Keith |
Trouble is that, often nothing gets done as, as soon as something happens that they can't agree on then its election time, comes up again and guess what, its back to the vote again...
Sometimes laws have to be passed that people don't like for the good of others.
With the PR system there is also the risk that laws that the majority of people support could not be passed due to a few who are holding a gov in power not agreeing to them and holding the main party to ransom over the fact they would no longer be in power.
So it works both ways.
Would you really want to see the likes of the BNP or some new founded non British party being the one's who keep the rest in government.
There are pro's and con's to both systems.
At least with 1st past the post we tend to get a stable government for a decent period, and their idea's have chance to be proved right or wrong.
You could just imagine how it could be with 2 parties fighting it out, but only staying in power thanks to a minority group. One saying we are going to be spending masses of public money on public services while in power, something happens and they are ousted after a year to be replaced by a lot who then cut back the public services, only to be ousted a year later...
I think you get the idea that there could be no stability and it would be far worse than what we have now. If anything like that was to happen all it would lead to is one Almighty economic crash...
I am neither pro either camp, just realistic that no matter what method of voting is in place it will still end up like now, with the vast majority of people unhappy with the bunch in power.
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| JonB |
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JonB
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Hetzer
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 19:56 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| iooi wrote: | Trouble is that, often nothing gets done as, as soon as something happens that they can't agree on then its election time, comes up again and guess what, its back to the vote again...
Sometimes laws have to be passed that people don't like for the good of others. |
Personally most of the time nothing does need doing. That is part of the problem, as often it seems the politicians seem to think that "something must be done". Just lands up screwing things up.
I would prefer no new laws to bad new laws.
| iooi wrote: | With the PR system there is also the risk that laws that the majority of people support could not be passed due to a few who are holding a gov in power not agreeing to them and holding the main party to ransom over the fact they would no longer be in power.
So it works both ways. |
Only if you have the elected representatives behaving like squabbling children. It needs cooperation, and if they cannot even manage that then there is little reason why their policies should come in.
Mind you, exactly the same could happen in the current system.
| iooi wrote: | Would you really want to see the likes of the BNP or some new founded non British party being the one's who keep the rest in government. |
Do you really want anyone in power who would stoop so low as to cooperate with such a party just to get a grip on power.
| iooi wrote: | At least with 1st past the post we tend to get a stable government for a decent period, and their idea's have chance to be proved right or wrong. |
Down side is that you land up with a country run by a party elected by a small minority, and a good chance that they have enough of a parliamentory majority to force anything through.
| iooi wrote: | I am neither pro either camp, just realistic that no matter what method of voting is in place it will still end up like now, with the vast majority of people unhappy with the bunch in power. |
At least the parliamentory representatives might vaguely represent the views of the population. Unlike the current situation. After all in the 2005 election the lib-dems got 22% of the votes yet only got 9.6% of the seats. The UKIP got 2.5 times the votes of the DUP, yet the UKIP got no seats and the DUP got 9 seats.
Parliament is hardly representative of the votes of the population. How many don't bother voting because they live in an area that is dominated by party X which they don't agree with, hence they feel their vote is a waste.
All the best
Keith
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iooi
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| bazza |
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bazza
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| Posted: 21:31 - 10 Mar 2008 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: | Parliament is hardly representative of the votes of the population. How many don't bother voting because they live in an area that is dominated by party X which they don't agree with, hence they feel their vote is a waste. |
And yet, if everyone who felt that way voted against them, they'd be out.
Of course, without PR, they'd just end up with someone equally untrustworthy from another party, but until something lights a fire under their collective arses[1], the electorate will just continue shuffle along in numb acquiesence to more laws, more taxes, more restrictions etc.
[1]Now if that ever happened, Westminster would collectively shit itself.
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"That's it. You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college."
'98 Ducati 750SS, '08 Suzuki GSX650F ©2004-2014, Bazza's Harmless Banter |
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Kickstart
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 17 years, 130 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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