Traction Control in Moto GP

[The Goat]

Due to shit weather and rain today ive had allot of time to contemplate last nights racing and the sport as a whole. I was discussing this today and so thought id throw it open for further debate.

Ive formed the opinion that TC should be banned from all MotoGP bikes, im increasingly worried that the sport is going to be over enginered much like F1 became, as an example I respect Stoner as a rider but im pretty sure the championship should have gone to his traction control, and the engineers that designed it, controversial you may say?

Id prefer to see riders battling to keep the bike in line through skill not technology, some of the edgy excitement has been removed from the sport because for the most part, bar major cock ups they are protected by the systems.

What do you all think, TC or none?

Luke

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

F1 is introducing a control ECU this year I think.

I know WSB and motoGP were also both looking into control ECU's to effectively stop the traction control.

I'm not a fan personally. Surely it's about the best rider, not who writes the best algorithms?
____________________
My Flickr

[gmanxiii]

Whilst I think traction control does help the slower riders keep up with the quicker riders i dont think it should be banned. It still takes a good skilled rider to make the most of the bike, its not just twist and go. Yes there is a lot of technology and engineering in the bikes and f1 but the whole point of the sport is its the best riders in the world on the most advanced systems in the world. Unfortunately it can make racing a tad boring if one team dominates but that could the same thing said if its the same rider winning again and again on a series with less tech.
____________________
I kills hondas

VFR400NC30 > ZZR600 > CBR600FX > CBR1000rr

[JonB]

At what point though does Traction Control stop being a safety device and begins to be a driver aid?
____________________
Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it?s worth.

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[deanoet]

I suppose it is where you draw the line isnt it
If a technology is available that could make the sport safer, but which may reduce the edgy excitement should it be used?

All motorsport is proof that engineers are a clever bunch, what you take away with one hand they claw back with the other from under the sofa.

It was in F1, Lotus i believe who discovered if they created a vaccum under the car they could corner faster, then if you put skirts round the sides of the car the vaccum is stronger so you can go faster round the corners. If the car leaves the ground and loses the vacuum for whatever reason you are f....... in trouble. Even now they reduced the engines to V10 instead of V12 to reduce the power and therefore speed, using different methods they are nearly back at the speeds they were in the V12 era, and are faster round a track than in the ground force and turboed engines days


Not been following bikes for long, but what is the speed difference from non TC days and now?
Tire technology, aerodynamic understanding, weight distrubution etc etc, how much faster do they go round corners than they did before TC was available?

End of the day it is a sport, if rider aids are there to reduce the chance of death or serious injury to the rider then isnt the governing body required to allow the use them?

Technology moves on, but that technology is still controlled by a squishy bit of muscle and bone that is no stronger now than in the 50s / 60s / 70s / 80s..... Falling off at 100mph a few decades ago and falling off at 190mph now still results in the human body having to absorb those forces, technology and leathers can only do so much
____________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CBT Passed 18th July 2007 : Previous Bikes> CG125 : Current Bike> Hornet 600 : PASSED DAS 30th Oct 2007
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mistergixer]

I think the idea that Stoner's win was down to the guy that programmed the TC is a little simplistic and flawed - you may as well say that it's down to the guy who wrote the ECU map, or the guy that fiddled with the suspension or gearing. They are all part of the same effort, and frequently the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
The use of TC is a rider aid and not a safety device - AFAIK the teams aren't bound by any rules insisting on its use, rather it is the desire to make the bike/rider combination the fastest around the track that is the compulsion behind its development and use.
Again, i don't think the argument that the riders are cossetted and protected from crashing by the advent of TC systems is true - just look at how many riders went down during practice sessions. It's not like the riders can just leave the throttle wide open at all times and the magical TC fairy will guide them round the bends and take care of everything.
But, i do agree that a degree of the excitement is lacking now in MotoGP - i started 'seriously' following GPs in the days of the 500s and Doohan, Roberts et al, through to the rise of Rossi and the introduction of the 4-stroke thousands. Back in those days men were men and tyres were nervous. Sure the 800s are quicker and (supposedly) safer, but for me the excitement was in the 'back-it-in, slide-it-out' style of riding and the omnipresent fear of the highside. I used to watch the races on the edge of my seat, either whooping with delight or wincing at the carnage - now i find my interest and enthusiasm waning quite a bit because it's more mundane and 'normal'.
Sad really.
____________________
Space Monkey #7
Don Eladio is dead. His capos are dead. You have no one left to fight for. Fill your pockets and leave in peace. Or fight me and die!
Mistergixer's videos on YouTube

[G]

If you want to see some competitive racing with basic machinery, why not get down to your local club meet .

To some degree, the way I always saw it, was that top non-production classes like this are /supposed/ to be about the best technology can bring. Yes the class in general doesn't always make for exciting races (ie, when Rossi was trouncing everyone, even if that was skill) but it's about the best of the best in all aspects.

[Shaane]

G

when you race do any of your bikes have TC?
____________________
EMRA Roadstock #92 - Paperwork Permitted.
Previous: 1992 DT125R
Current: ~ 2005 ZX6R C1H

[St0rmer66]

[Silver]

Traction control is not an on/off thing on these bikes. They have multiple levels and the riders can adjust the amount of control themselves during a race. Last year, at Vallelunga, Corser turned his off for the start. He forgot he'd done it and promptly highsided after a few corners! D'oh... Many riders run with low levels of traction control as they prefer the bike to move beneath them. Rossi has gone on record as saying that he's amazed by the way that Stoner utilises his traction control.

[D O G]

Top level motorsport is big business now. That includes F1, MotoGP, WSB etc etc. The commercialism has increased rapidly over the past two decades, and race teams are now wholly corporate enterprises. The balance has shifted entirely away from these sports being run by enthusiasts to them being run by company officers who's first duty is to act for the interests of the owners of the teams & sports. This ultimately means maximising the revenue, which of course means achieving the best results.

Any company director worth his salt identifies the risks in his organisation, factors which threaten achieving the best results. Reliance on one individual (the rider) is an obvious risk, regardless of his skill. He just twists the throttle that bit too quick, squeezes the brake just a little too hard, down he goes and so does the chance of a good result.

By establishing a strong team of engineers and developers you diversify some of the risk away, you can build and excellent bike and make up for some deficiencies - the Duke's massive power is a clear example of this.

Traction control is a godsend to the team directors, as it substantially reduces the risk of rider error messing up their investment. They are a safety device, but not primarily developed for the safety of the riders, they are developed for the safety of the investors' investment.

It was very apparent on Sunday how few mistakes were being made, how smooth all the riders were, particularly out of the corners. For us watching this is not as exciting - since there was such a low incidence of minor mistakes, which usually result in position changes, and gives the racing a bit of an edge.

I hate traction control. I am fundamentally opposed to its concept. As an enthusiast I want to see close racing, pushing the riders' and drivers' skills to the limit and beyond. I want to see bikes sliding and spinning it up out of the corners - it looks dramatic. It emasculates racing, it takes away kudos from the riders/drivers, whom I and the majority of the fans identify most with.

It makes it less dangerous.

Motorsport should be dangerous. There should be potentially grave consequences to mistakes. The ability to be the fastest should be a combination of courage, raw talent and refined technical skill. It is not this anymore, which is a great loss for the enthusiasts.

What would rather watch? The race we saw on Sunday, or the TT?

[stigger]

I think you'll find that V10's were used because they were a better layout than the V8's or V12's, as far as I know the current V8 only regulation is the only time F1 have restricted the engine layout.

I always think its a difficult balanceing act with "premiere" formulas balancing what the engines can do against what make the racing interesting.

[Fawbish]

Excellent post Damofo. Summed up a lot of my thoughts - Cheers, cos I didnt fancy writing out all that


And for the record?


It goes (after Sunday anyways)


MotoGP 125's/Amateur Racing/Trackdays (when im actually there to watch )
TT/GP250's/BSBSupers
MotoGP8's/BSB other classes

anyone else?



Conversely to my strong opinion that all riders should be on the same bikes....I HATE watching the R6 cup. Its really boring I dont think the skill level of the riders is up there, but I cant complain.
____________________
"Oh....it looks like Average Joe's is forfeiting the match!" - "Yeah, its a risky strategy but lets see if it pays off for 'em Cotton."

[Kris]

Electronic rider control removes the fundamental aspects of what motorcycling (and especially motorcycling racing) is all about to me.

Feel and human spirit in battle.

Riding that thin line at the edge of traction using that human sense 'feel' and all a rider's experience to adjust throttle postions at the earliest possible time to gain vital milliseconds each lap. Then, a rider can dig deep and use all available bravery and desire to push even harder, whilst fully aware that the merest step too far could result in instant failure. The difficulty of taming these monster motorcycles, whilst simultaneously battling other riders of similar talents is what made motoGP great.

Now it seems that a rider can push a button at the start and get a decent launch with the aid of launch control.

Now a rider can twist the throttle as hard as they like at the exit of a turn and the computer works out the fastest way and cuts power accordingly.

If the bike's front wheel lifts out of a turn the the power can be cut at the bequest of the computer.

These systems know where the bike is on track and makes adjustments for each corner individually.

So no wonder the old guard are struggling; they're used to having to use their brain and years of experience in every 100th of a degree twist of the throttle. The new generation trust the electronics implicitly - whack it open and Bob's new program will sort it.

So anyone who thinks the race between Stoner and Rossi is mainly down to those two is sorely mistaken. The electronics guys are moving in on the field. In a few more years we may even be able to remove the human element completely - robot races anyone? Where will it stop?

I'm all for banning all electronic aids. Will they do it? Will they feck.
____________________
NSR125RR - ZXR750H1 - ZX9R E1 - GSF600S - GSF600SK3 - VFR400-NC30 - SV1000N - ST1100-R - CBR900RR-R - GSF1200SK5 - GSF600SK1 - VFR1200FA - GSXR1000K2 - ZZR1400 D8F
www.prisonplanet.com

[veeeffarr]

Stick them all on carbed bikes with absolutely no electrics whatsoever and I'd be watching it religiously.

I agree with improving racing safety, but that can be done with better run offs/personal safety equipment rather than neutering the machine.

[G]

Indeed Kris, bring back 500cc 2 stroke I say – a bit ‘purer’ than the mostly easier to ride 4 strokes.

I can see the point where they have a traction control system set up for the front brake too – so you just squeeze as hard as possible and it both stops the rear coming up and releases it gradually with just enough leeway as you tip in.
Often overlooked, I think that is possibly something requiring even more skill than getting on the power – the very few times I’ve managed to push the limits of late braking while decently leant over I’ve felt like I was achieving something .

With that, basically, it’d just be left up to the rider to choose the turn in point (ok, there would still be a lot of other factors).

I’ve often wondered about an automated/remote controlled full-size vehicle race series. Could be the ultimate progression of something like this giving some very exciting racing – though not sure I’d want to be any where near the track where it’s happening when 200mph+ automated machines collide!