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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 09:05 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Why Reply with quote
Why is it that most major world events seem to pass virtually unnoticed in the Current Affairs section of BCF?

Russian troops are busy digging in following their invasion of a sovereign state on a manufactured pretext - if that had been America we'd be overwhelmed with the usual howls of protest; as we are about their alleged plans to invade Iran. Russia actually HAS invaded Georgia, but noone here seems THAT bothered about it, I think it's been casually mentioned in a couple of threads.

President Musharraf, the virtual dictator of Pakistan has resigned after 9 years of unelected power. He's been a vocal supporter of the US war on terror, but his country's intelligence services arm and support islamic militias and Al Queda. This also seems to be of little interest to BCF'ers.

Are we really so shallow that the only things we care about are new UK laws and Lefty conspiracies?
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-Savage-
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
With the amount of tripe that gets posted in the current affairs section, I dare say that the people who are actually interested in the actual and important current affairs, would rather just chat about it in the pub and have a rational debate/discussion, than waste their time trying to sieve through all the codswallop here lol.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Difference is that they are not claiming to be whiter than white while hiding their dodgy actions.

Hypocracy winds people up.

All the best

Keith
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've mentioned more than once that the russians are degenerate scum. Didn't see much point saying "Told you so".
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SoND
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's none of our business really and the amount of propaganda being spewed out to us I don't know what to believe. It's all incredibly skewed claiming Russia is in the wrong but some sources suggest that Georgia started the whole thing and if they did then stepping on Russia's toes is the last thing we want to do. Their policy of using tactical warheads against the USA if they attack with conventional weapons still stands, doesn't sound like they're joking and I don't trust the USA to keep their nose out.

Quote:
President Musharraf, the virtual dictator of Pakistan has resigned after 9 years of unelected power. He's been a vocal supporter of the US war on terror, but his country's intelligence services arm and support islamic militias and Al Queda.


The US do exactly the same thing. Laughing
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 11:36 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Difference is that they are not claiming to be whiter than white while hiding their dodgy actions.



I beg to differ - they appear to have been lying and making false claims throughout this little military adventure; about their goals, their justifications and their actions.

Quote:

Hypocracy winds people up.


Exactly my point - so everyone jumps all over America (even for things it hasn't done yet) but Russia actually DOES something (complete with the requisite pictures of injured old ladies, demolished houses and dead civvies on both sides) and there's barely a peep on here.

Compare that with the umpteen threads/name-checks for America's alleged intentions towards Iran.

Siggi wrote:
I've mentioned more than once that the russians are degenerate scum. Didn't see much point saying "Told you so".


Aye.

As a wider point, it does seem like the whole of the West is in denial about the Russian Bear, despite ample warning of Putin's hostile intent.

Quote:

It's none of our business really


Russian troops on the ground in another sovereign state - one that just happens to be pro-West, after dire Russian warnings against the expansion of NATO or its influence, and it isn't our business?

On that basis, why is it any business of yours what America gets up to on the other side of the world?

As Keith says, Hypocrisy annoys people - including me.

Quote:

It's all incredibly skewed claiming Russia is in the wrong but some sources suggest that Georgia started the whole thing and if they did then stepping on Russia's toes is the last thing we want to do.


I've seen plenty of stories for both sides of the argument. The fact is that Russian troops are in another country blowing things up - that's an invasion, right?

Quote:
Their policy of using tactical warheads against the USA if they attack with conventional weapons still stands, doesn't sound like they're joking and I don't trust the USA to keep their nose out.


Why should the USA stay out of it, when their ally is being pushed about? Because you're scared of the Russians?

NATO was always going to be the first to use nuclear weapons in the cold war, tactical devices were the only way we'd be able to stem the flow of Russian conventional forces.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
I beg to differ - they appear to have been lying and making false claims throughout this little military adventure; about their goals, their justifications and their actions.


They have come up with short term justifications, not long term claims of how great and peaceful they are.

Mister James wrote:
Exactly my point - so everyone jumps all over America (even for things it hasn't done yet) but Russia actually DOES something (complete with the requisite pictures of injured old ladies, demolished houses and dead civvies on both sides) and there's barely a peep on here.


Barely a peep true, but when there is little difference between this and US actions why are you mainly concerned with this? Seems to me that you are using exactly the same selective comments.

All the best

Keith
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
BCF is quite ignorant, but it could be much worse. Razz
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tatters
Exxon Valdez



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


Siggi wrote:
I've mentioned more than once that the russians are degenerate scum. Didn't see much point saying "Told you so".


Aye.

As a wider point, it does seem like the whole of the West is in denial about the Russian Bear, despite ample warning of Putin's hostile intent.
.



Europe especially France/Germany are too afraid to piss off the Russians due to there reliance on the Gas/oil that come through Russia.

Going to be interesting to see what happens with this missile defense system with part of it being set up in Poland in exchange for increasing Polands air defenses which Russia are warning of retaliation if they go ahead with the site, Russia attacking a EU member state....... Thinking
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iooi
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Are we really so shallow that the only things we care about are new UK laws and Lefty conspiracies?


Who cares what Russia does in its own back yard..... At least they are keeping it close to home and protecting a lot of their own passport holders....
Unlike good ol'e USA who are prepared to flout the UN and go anywhere in the world where they feel that it may benefit them, no matter what the cost.
As to Pakisan, another country that shouts loud that its behind the war on terror while backing other side with money and support.

No matter what we do here makes any diffrence and to be honest causes a lot of friction between posters.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Mister James wrote:
I beg to differ - they appear to have been lying and making false claims throughout this little military adventure; about their goals, their justifications and their actions.


They have come up with short term justifications, not long term claims of how great and peaceful they are.


As it's only happened in the last week or so, we can hardly judge their long-term actions yet!?


Quote:

Barely a peep true, but when there is little difference between this and US actions why are you mainly concerned with this? Seems to me that you are using exactly the same selective comments.


Are you being deliberately obtuse?

If there is little difference between this and US actions, it should surely follow that these actions should be condemned or at least discussed as much as those taken by the US?

I'm pointing out the fact that there is not a single thread on the Georgian crisis/adventure/whatever on BCF, but about 927 million on Teh EVAL BUSSH!!11 and the like. If there is selective commenting, it ain't me that's doing it.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
Mister James wrote:
Are we really so shallow that the only things we care about are new UK laws and Lefty conspiracies?


Who cares what Russia does in its own back yard..... At least they are keeping it close to home and protecting a lot of their own passport holders....


Every country's actions in the world are to protect the interests of its own passport holders, either directly or by consequence. How is this different? Is it ok to invade countries who are near to you? The Georgians don't seem too happy about the whole thing, does that not matter?

Quote:

Unlike good ol'e USA who are prepared to flout the UN and go anywhere in the world where they feel that it may benefit them, no matter what the cost.


So the Russian invasion is backed by the UN then? I must've missed that.

Again, is the legitimacy of a military adventure solely dependent on the range at which it is carried out?

Quote:

As to Pakisan, another country that shouts loud that its behind the war on terror while backing other side with money and support.


I agree - so the dictator who has been in charge of the whole mess stepping down would surely be of interest to anyone watching world affairs?

My mistake, we'd rather read ludicrous conspiracy theories about Evil Corps taking over the world.

Quote:

No matter what we do here makes any diffrence and to be honest causes a lot of friction between posters.


In that case, why is this theory not applied to....ohhh, I don't know - the Iraq war?

Lets face it, people here are only interested in knocking the yanks (as your hopelessly one-sided comments show) and have no interest when someone else shows that Bush doesn't hold a monopoly on military adventurism.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

Who cares what Russia does in its own back yard..... At least they are keeping it close to home and protecting a lot of their own passport holders....


How quaint and naive! , nations exist to protect the elite of those nations , any good coincidental consequence is a by product of the actual result that was desired.

Ie police , the elite and wealthy call the police they come running, however you cannot just create a private army without people noticing they have a private army. So they put a few people in uniforms over the rest of the country to go through the motions and to raise a bit of tax when needed.

A big example is:

The British empire, it barely benefited people here, it benefited the wealthy but to most people they were recruited to be the cannon fodder for the expansion of the empire and defence of it.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Mister James wrote:

Who cares what Russia does in its own back yard..... At least they are keeping it close to home and protecting a lot of their own passport holders....


How quaint and naive! , nations exist to protect the elite of those nations , any good coincidental consequence is a by product of the actual result that was desired.



You beat me to it.
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SoND
World Chat Champion



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Grrr. Firefox crashed and lost my reply, time to start using word.

Mister James wrote:
Exactly my point - so everyone jumps all over America (even for things it hasn't done yet) but Russia actually DOES something (complete with the requisite pictures of injured old ladies, demolished houses and dead civvies on both sides) and there's barely a peep on here.


America has a horrible record in the middle east, starting wars on lies resulting in over 650,000 people losing their lives, so it's perfectly acceptable to jump on them when they try it again.

Quote:
Russian troops on the ground in another sovereign state - one that just happens to be pro-West, after dire Russian warnings against the expansion of NATO or its influence, and it isn't our business?


According to wikipedia South Ossetia declared itself an independant state but it hasn't been recognised by the UN. I don't know exactly what's going on over there but there's obviously conflict over the territory and just because Georgia might be flying the pro-west flag doesn't mean that we should pick sides and step in, especially when there is evidence to suggest that they were the aggressor. It's not our war.

Quote:
On that basis, why is it any business of yours what America gets up to on the other side of the world?


We're Uncle Sam's bitch and tend to get dragged into anything that they do, it's pretty important to keep an eye on what they're up to.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Mister James wrote:

Who cares what Russia does in its own back yard..... At least they are keeping it close to home and protecting a lot of their own passport holders....




Check your quotes Itchy - I didn't say the above.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
As it's only happened in the last week or so, we can hardly judge their long-term actions yet!?


I didn't mention long-term actions. Just that so far all that they have come up with is short term justifications for their actions. They haven't spent years claiming to be peaceful with everyones best interests at heart.

They have a massive amount of self interest in their policies, and do appear to have acted very badly in Georgia. But are also pretty brutally honest about it.

Mister James wrote:
If there is little difference between this and US actions, it should surely follow that these actions should be condemned or at least discussed as much as those taken by the US?


Exactly my point. You have jumped in with this thread, which while basically aimed at BCFers is also condemning Russia, yet you are far less vocal in condemning actions by the USA or the UK.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because I tend not to agree with the condemnation of the US/UK seen on here - I am, however, prepared to discuss it.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Because I tend not to agree with the condemnation of the US/UK seen on here - I am, however, prepared to discuss it.


Fair enough. But I would regard some of the US / UK actions as equally dubious, and equally deserving of condemnation. Just interesting that while you do not agree with condemnation of the US / UK you are prepared to seem to condemn Russia while bringing some BCFers one sided opinions to light.

All the best

Keith
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carvell
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was under the impression that Georgia were the ones that had invaded Russian land.

If someone invaded America there would be a 50 year "war on terror" and absolutely zero chance that America would ever sign a peace treaty, they wouldn't stop until the country was flat.

At least Russia has agreed to sign a peace treaty, they've kicked some arse for the invasion and now it's as good as over.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Mister James wrote:
Because I tend not to agree with the condemnation of the US/UK seen on here - I am, however, prepared to discuss it.


Fair enough. But I would regard some of the US / UK actions as equally dubious, and equally deserving of condemnation. Just interesting that while you do not agree with condemnation of the US / UK you are prepared to seem to condemn Russia while bringing some BCFers one sided opinions to light.

All the best

Keith



I understand your point - I just don't think it applies to this thread. My complaint is not that people disagree with me, or even that they dislike the US/UK or their actions. I'm highlighting (or attempting to, at least) the fact that there has been no scrutiny at all of Russia's actions, either positive or negative.

The tiniest or most ludicrously unlikely American intentions/actions/comments/fairy stories are pounced on immediately on these forums, and yet we hear not a peep about Russia.

My opinions are irrelevant - the longstanding argument on these forums has been that people aren't Anti-American, they are just challenging unacceptable behaviour. Russia's behaviour would seem to need similar scrutiny, but has received none.

My views on the crisis are actually slightly more balanced than you seem to think, but we don't know, because noone is talking about it - as I've attempted to demonstrate.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

Check your quotes Itchy - I didn't say the above.


Thumbs Up
Twas me.. Wink

The part Russia invaded, does not want to be part of Gerogia and is full of Russian citizans. A situation more akin to the Falkland island really. And i guess they will say their citizans invited them to come and free them, just like the Falkland islanders did to us. Thumbs Up

I'm not anti usa. Just anti countries who seem to think they know better than everyone else, and think that they have to right to tell the rest of the world they are wrong, when they are nothing but the new kids on the block.
Russia had more right to do this than ANY of the recent invasion the USA has taken part in.
Yet usa then stands up and beats its chest telling them to get out.... While still pouring millions of $ into attempting to overthrow other legitamite goverments that they in the 1st place were behind in setting up.

The worry is that far to many people seems to be under a spell and when Mr President of the US of A says jump... It's how high, and not WHY do i need to jump.....

Pot, Kettle & Black springs to mind.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
carvell wrote:
I was under the impression that Georgia were the ones that had invaded Russian land.


No, Georgia were getting into a civil war situation, suppressing those elements of an area who wanted to break away. A large number of those in that area regard themselves as Russian.

carvell wrote:
If someone invaded America there would be a 50 year "war on terror" and absolutely zero chance that America would ever sign a peace treaty, they wouldn't stop until the country was flat.


Not sure. Nearest to that would be Pearl Harbour, and the final result of that for Japan was probably not as bad as it that war was for Germany.

That said, the USA has never really had much of a battle on their home territory since their civil war. Something few other first world countries have managed to avoid. How they would react if it did happen is virtually impossible to know.

carvell wrote:
At least Russia has agreed to sign a peace treaty, they've kicked some arse for the invasion and now it's as good as over.


Dubious. Likely they have got what they wanted and have the power to keep it.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
carvell wrote:
I was under the impression that Georgia were the ones that had invaded Russian land.


A quick flick through the BBC website would soon put paid to that idea.

The 2 provinces that were the Russian pretext for war are Georgian, on Georgian land. Russia has been supporting them for years to destabilise the pro-western regime in Tiblisi and prevent NATO expansion.

Quote:
The first independent monitors to enter South Ossetia have dismissed Russian claims that hundreds were killed by the Georgian army in its offensive in South Ossetia. That claim has been an important pretext for Russia's aggressive deployment around the enclave.

"Our estimate does not confirm the official figure. We believe we are talking about dozens rather than thousands," said Anna Neistat, a researcher for Human Rights Watch. "We have a rough estimate based on hospital figures and eyewitness testimony in the worst affected areas. We keep hearing official statements of several thousands dead and this is not serious and is irresponsible. It does not help to bring clarity to what happened there and bring justice to the victims."


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2579167/Russia-claims-troops-are-withdrawing-from-Georgia.html

Looks like their propaganda is looking a little shaky too.

Quote:

At least Russia has agreed to sign a peace treaty, they've kicked some arse for the invasion and now it's as good as over.


They signed it some time ago, yet ignore its terms and continued to strike deep into Georgian territory, destroying infrastructure and generally being arseholes.

There still remains little evidence of a withdrawal.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 16:47 - 18 Aug 2008    Post subject: Re: Why Reply with quote
iooi wrote:


The part Russia invaded, does not want to be part of Gerogia and is full of Russian citizans. A situation more akin to the Falkland island really. And i guess they will say their citizans invited them to come and free them, just like the Falkland islanders did to us. Thumbs Up



This may well be true to an extent, but there can be no doubt that the Russians have deliberately stirred things up. The article I've posted below seems to imply that there are only Russian citizens there because Russia gave them all Russian passports in order to keep this conflict on the boil - and is now alleged to be employing the same tactic in the Ukraine.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/2575421/Russia-distributing-passports-in-the-Crimea.html

Quote:
Russia handed out passports to the residents of the two provinces, which have long looked to Moscow for support, five years ago. The Kremlin has justified its invasion of Georgia in terms of defending its citizens in Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgian "aggression".

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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 17 years, 127 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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